E16 Relational Systems Make Or Break The CEO
July 2024
117 minutes
E16 Relational Systems Make Or Break The CEO
July 2024
117 minutes
Stream on:
Are leaders like the President, Prime Minister, or CEO just a puppet? Beholden to forces beyond their control? In this episode we look at how relational systems can make or break the success of a CEO. When humans get together, they naturally create roles, functions, and hierarchies. Well meaning HR departments create organizational charts but humans do not neatly fit inside boxes. Unless hidden loyalties are mapped and revealed, a shadow system might be secretly running the show. The good news is that we can bring light to these relational systems through the methodology of business constellation, which allows us to bring awareness and reconciliation and create Functional Human-Systems™. Skip the systems thinking and step inside a map of the system itself.
is a global, leadership-strategy consulting company. 3Peak creates the roadmap that aligns behaviours, relationships and Functional Human-Systems™ to achieve your business strategy.
Co-Founder holds a Ph.D. in Neuroscience, and did extensive research in Consciousness, Trauma and Physical, Emotional & Mental Health in various Institutes and Research Centers around Europe.
Co-Founder is one of the most sought after therapists in the world, mastering diverse modalities and opening wellness centers in Istanbul, Santiago, New York and Berlin. Her approaches bridges transpersonal psychology, meditation, bioenergetics, family- and business-constellations and more.
Co-Founder has extensive experience advising Fortune 50 and FTSE 100 C-Suite Executives in leadership, strategy, team dynamics, and organizational change. Before coaching, Mino worked in finance, management consulting, and mergers and acquisitions (M&A).
Mino Vlachos: Hello and welcome to the 3Peak master leadership experience. My name is Mino Vlachos and I'm joined by Dr. Mazen Harb and Krisana Locke. We are the co founders of 3Peak coaching and solutions where master leaders build healthy systems. Our company provides coaching and workshops to executive leaders and leadership and well being workshops to employees. Today's topic is our third, last, and probably most important episode on CEO's. And before we get kicked off, we did actually record another podcast episode that we recommend you listen to before this one, which is about the power of intuition. And there's many principles we laid out in that episode that will help anyone listening to this episode understand and have context for what we're talking about today. We're going to dive right into some of the big topics that leaders CEO's face. And it's a topic that on its surface might sound a little boring, but I think is truly the most important facet when it comes to leading an organization. In this episode, we're going to share some of the principles that can make or break a leader. And I'll start by sharing a story. When I was starting my coaching journey, I remember I was coaching a leader who was the head of a manufacturing plant. And so he ran all the factories that produced the product of this organization. And I remember he started to tell me that there was this kind of cold war going on between two entire functions, that there was 10,000 people that reported to him. And then this other function, which I believe was facilities, had another 10,000 people and they were ready to go to war. And so in my training, there's trainings I've taken about how to resolve conflict when it's one person against one person. I can even talk about sometimes if there's some conflict within a small group, a team. But what happens when entire functions are ready to go to war with one another, when marketing is ready to kill sales and vice versa? What happens when you hire someone for a role and they fail, and you hire another person for the same role and they fail and you hire a third person for that role and they fail? What happens when you hear the president of the United States or the prime minister of Germany talk about feeling powerless, like there's these forces at play, that they feel like they're almost like a puppet and they can't actually enact any change or do anything? Today we're talking about systems and all the kind of forces that pull and push us when we're not aware of the systems that we operate in. And so we're going to start to uncover a little bit of the dynamics and also principles for success when we come to talk about systems. And so one thing we're going to do is just a little bit of a recap, because if you don't listen to the intuition episode, it's still very important. So we're going to do a little bit of a recap of something we built up to towards the end. So again, this is a principle that if you're confused about, please go listen to all the building blocks that led us to here. But one thing I wanted to open with is when humans operate in systems, whether it's a family or a business, they can somehow store information and share information outside of verbal processes, outside of even body language, we're able to hold information outside of ourselves. One theory which I find quite compelling on how we're able to do this is called the morphic field. And so I'm going to ask Krisana to share a little bit about what is the morphic field and how is it important to how humans interact with one another.
Krisana Locke: So the morphic field, as we had said in the other podcast, was about when a group forms, and how there's a formation we talked about with the birds, and there's a certain knowing field that they're all communicating with, but not verbally or. So there's a field there. So also, we have our own individual self, we have our own individual history, but we are part of a bigger system, a collective. So it either can be your family, or it can be a system at your work, or a club, you go to a sports club. But if you look at the, you're part of a family system. And in this family system, everyone has a right to belong. Who belongs to this family system? And it's certain kind of, it starts to guide a certain behavior of the system, whoever's in it. So the system has this field of how one should be in this system. So there's certain laws, there's certain orders, there's orders of balance, there's also orders of who belongs, orders of exclusion, many different principles that govern this. And there's also, underneath that, a collective conscience. And these are hidden forces that also affect the people's behaviour in this system. So there's also hidden forces or a collective conscience, not consciousness, even in systems and organizations. And it was a way to keep the group together. So groups. So, for example, living in caves, you know, there were certain hidden principles that weren't spoken about what you do in the cave, what what happens outside the cave, living in the cave, what you do outside that you wouldn't do inside the cave. So these are all these hidden conscious so that you don't upset the system. And these can be carried on and run through. And sometimes when they're out of balance, they can create disharmony, and they can create loss and disorder in the system, and also they can be passed on. So there are certain principles, and there are certain laws that are working in this field of influence, this morphic field that keeps a group together. And they're principles that we have in family systems and laws, and they're also principles that happen in the wisdom of success. So there's certain operating hidden laws that keep this field together, and that's called the knowing field or the morphic field.
Mino Vlachos: And so my impression, especially in a United States, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, in these kind of cultures, because we've been conditioned in a very individualistic way, we almost think of evolution as an individualistic process. It is how I, as an individual, came to be from something before me and how I, in my biology and my physiology developed. And I would like to say that we are social creatures. So in addition to how I developed, there's also how we developed the processes and mechanisms by which the group intelligence is able to get higher. We have, as Kristana mentioned, certain almost self correcting mechanisms in how our brain operates, that is, around social engagement and group engagement. And so there's a lot of studies done that one of the kind of intrinsic parts of humans is fairness, some level of fairness. So it's one example, and I'll give an example. There's many studies done, but I'll give a version of it, my own version, to make it quick, which is we'll play a game. And imagine in this game, there's a million dollar pot, and one partner a gets to divide the pot, and partner b gets to either accept the deal or reject the deal. If partner b accepts the deal, then everyone gets the money that was allocated by partner a. If it's rejected, then neither gets any money. So let's say there's a million dollars in the pot and I'm partner a, and I say I'm going to get $999,999 and Mazen, your partner B, and I will give you $1. Do you accept this deal or do you reject this deal? And the.
Dr. Mazen Harb: What was that I rejected?
Mino Vlachos: Yes. So the vast majority of humans, almost everyone, rejects it, right. But actually, if you look at it, you would have one more dollar than you had yesterday. So you would be benefiting, right? You would have more than you had yesterday. So the quote unquote utilitarian answer is, I have zero. Now I have one. That's an improvement upon my position. I would take the deal. Almost every human being rejects the deal because there's an intrinsic sense of fairness, which is, hey, I'm going to be crass. I'm in New York. It's like, fuck you, dude. What do you. That's not fair. And so we can study, there's certain boundaries and capacities that we kind of consider fair and unfair. And so there are these laws that regulate our brains so that we can operate in group harmony. Mazen, I'd like to kind of hear from you, neuroscientist, conscious researcher. You've done biology, physiology. Like, I'm talking a little bit about this kind of group evolution, social evolution process. What do you notice within humans that helps us to kind of regulate and keep some balance when it comes to groups or how we interact with other people?
Dr. Mazen Harb: Actually, I need to give some notions before. And then, please, from based on those notions, just redirect me to the question so I'm able to see if I can give you the right answer. But the idea that we are individual is a very important idea, right? We come as a baby within a family, and then we try to reach the word individuality, which is very important, but it does not mean that we are separate. So the word individuality, individuality does not mean we're separate from where we are. I'll give an example, more of a metaphoric example. Before going to the biology of it. Imagine in the ocean or any vessel of water. And then you put many fish there, different animals. And then you tell them, you know, you're not connected. You're individuals. They're like, actually, yeah, we're not connected yet. You put an ink or anything, something, a smell, something toxic, some. Whatever you need, you change the whole for everyone. And then they realize, actually, how can we be not connected yet? Our milieu is one. This is the good example to explain, and this is now it's time to really share it. It's not this weird science. That's science. We exist in the same milieu. We share. We're not separate individuals. We share the atmosphere. It's not void. It's not empty. You're gonna say, yes, but water is more. It's more real. And I'm like, so now we're gonna. Both are elements. Air and water are elements. It happened that water is more tangible, and then air is like, ah, but there's nothing, it's just, it's a very scientific misconception. How can there be nothing? How can you be breathing? And they were like, yeah, but it's empty. I'm like, it cannot be empty. So here's the realization. When you do this, imagine there other being, other animal that can see the vibration, they will see us as if when we see animals in the water, because animals in the water are not like, oh, look at me, I'm moving, they're all in the same water, they don't see the movement around them a little bit. Yes, we share the same space, and in that it's a vibrational space, it's elements around us. So I went far to bring to the emotion. We think, because we didn't have enough emotional education as kids, we believe and we think that our emotions, no, any emotions we feel that's us, and then that's only through us. We do not know that we're able, and through empathy, we're able to feel everything around us. Hence, if that's true, if it's really everything we feel is us, how can a kid develop and understand the world knowing that the kid, to understand the world around it, it needs to understand its emotional component of the caregivers of the parents. So it starts to relate and understand if the word safe or not. So it doesn't come only from within, it comes as a mirror. So again, it's not separate. So whenever we go into an experience as a group, whatever we feel, it's not always only us. And actually to really believe it's only us, it's to live in the biggest illusion that ever exists, because biologically it is not possible. The close you are to the group, the more you feel them, based on your DNA, based on the connection you have, based on the electromagnetic field. So that means regardless where they are on this planet, I'm not going to go into the quantum physics of it, but it has to do with the electromagnetic field and the heart. But you're going to say, but my parent is far, yet something I don't feel right. The more you close to the group, the more you're influenced by what's happening to the group. The trauma, the joy, from the most positive to the most negative, yet you're not aware and you think something is wrong with me. I'm like, yesterday I was going for a walk, I was like, I was feeling things, I'm like, I was reflection, I'm like, it's, I got it. But something I have to understand? And then I remembered I belonged to the group. During those two days of reflection, feeling things, I'm like, I know what was mine. Did I ever ask, what about the group around me? Who are the group that closest to me is my family. I checked. Okay, who's the second group that's closest to me? It's my business partners. See, those are the two groups. Who's the third group that's close to me? It's Berlin as a city, because things happens in cities. You know, when in New York, when something happens, the people in New York were all affected regardless. They were close to the 911 or farther. But the second group was the United States of America. It comes second. So this is, this is. We're constantly interconnected. They close our ties first through DNA, second through living with the people, the more we feel each other. So it's one field that we share together and we constantly, that's what we call later on, telepathical. Oh, I felt you. I understood. I have an intuition thought we are sharing within that field of information.
Mino Vlachos: And I'm excited because later in the episode, I will actually ask us to tap a little bit into the quantum topic. So I hope that's exciting for you too, Mazen. But we're going to build up to it because we're already scaling up to some. They're going to be advanced topics, in my opinion. It's things that, very candidly, I have not found a way to really share and speak about with our clients. And the great thing is we don't have to talk about it. We have exercises that show you how to do it without thinking too much about it. And that bridges into the last CEO installment we did. We talked about orders of kind of maturity, orders of perception, orders of consciousness. It was a model. So every model has its limitations. But one of the things we talked about is that at a kind of, what's called a stage three kind of perception of the world, you're very enmeshed in the culture that you're a part of. So it's really that kind of moralistic, it's like empathetic but moralistic way of perceiving the world. And the analogy that I use is that you basically are a culture. And so when you are your culture, it's like a fish that's swimming in water. You don't know you're in water. You just are. And so a lot of the assumptions about how things are, you take it for granted. A very tangible example. I have a friend who's in the United States, we went to Europe together. He had never been to Europe before, and so when we arrived in Europe, he tried to pay with dollars, right? He didn't know that other countries use different currencies. He was so swimming in this culture called United States that he'd never, never dawned on him that there might be a culture called Europe. And all of a sudden, in this moment, he realized there's people that are different than me. And that was a big realization for him. For me, I had a bit of a tougher initiation because my parents are immigrants to the United States, and I would split my time between Europe and the US. So when I was in Greece, I never quite felt greek enough. When I was in America, I never quite felt american enough. I always felt like I was in other. So I was always, since I was born, I was aware that culture exists and that I'm somehow. I don't know where I fit. So I was aware of the water from a very kind of early age, and some people are not aware of that water. Having said that, just being aware of the water didn't support me to get out of the water, so to speak. But I was at least aware, like, there's something here, people are operating, and then there's something weird going on, like, huh? There's, like, codes of conduct. So people talk about, like, the matrix. Oh, I discovered the matrix. I'm like, you basically just discover the cultural rules of your society and that you can actually play the game if you wish, based on those rules. When we talked about evolving into a leader that moves beyond being enmeshed in the culture and a leader that's actually operating on principles and values and as autonomy, all of a sudden you're not only aware of the matrix, but you're creating your own matrix. You're creating your own code of conduct, your own culture, your own set of rules for yourself and out of principle, not out of a should or an obligation, this is a very hard process to go through. It takes time. It takes guidance. Elders, healers. There's support that's needed to bridge that gap. It's challenging, and it requires support. And so if I go up to a company or even a family, and I say, I need you to map for me all of your dynamics, all of your relationships between each other, all the systems that you've created. It's really, really hard for people to do that. Our brains don't necessarily operate in that way. And lately, what I've seen in the kind of academia is that there's this new craze about systems thinking, which is the systems thinking is very needed. And this is what this episode will touch upon. But the way academia is doing it is the way the western model looks at it, which is we're looking for models for different kind of inputs, data. And what you look at these models, and they say, okay, there's, like 49 different ways you need to be thinking concurrently to get to a systems thinking. And I see these models, and I look at them, and they're very esoteric, super heady, and I'm like, it's hard enough to teach people how to, like, think in two or three different ways. To teach 49 different concurrent and do it all at the same time is really hard, almost impossible. I never would try that with a client, because it would be like running your head into a wall repeatedly. So what's beautiful and what we're going to now turn to is a technology has been invented of which we're sitting with one of the masters on the planet, which takes this process of systems thinking, and actually, through a beautiful, live, interactive demonstration, shows you hidden dynamics and systems that occur, whether it's in a family or in a business. And this technology is called constellation. Either family constellation or business constellation. And so without having a revolution of consciousness, you can actually still physically see a four dimensional topic in a three dimensional space. And that, to me, is one of the absolute beauties of constellation, is it's making the untouchable touchable, the invisible visible. So, Krisana, if you could give us just a little bit of an introduction. This is work that was pioneered by Burt Hellinger. And I know you've been doing this for many years, both in a family setting, in a business setting. What is constellation? How would you start to maybe describe a little bit what this technology is?
Krisana Locke: It's a methodology, and it's to look at when there's issues or there's life situations, or you're a bit lost with direction to look at on a systemic level, maybe there is something deeper that's hidden, that's keeping you locked into certain hidden dynamics and behaviors that you're not aware of or that have held in place because they haven't been acknowledged or there probably hasn't been. Something's missing, or something needs to be brought into balance. So when we look at with the method of constellation, family constellation, it's very simple. Everyone who belongs to the family is born into that family belongs. So it's about belonging. So there's a belonging, and everyone has a right. And if someone leaves early, if there's an early death, or there's an exclusion, there's certain hidden dynamics that start to happen, or if there was injustice, or even things that have happened, fates or fates or war, or things that have made an impact on the family will in later generations, or have an effect on the family's behavior and loss. So it's looking at that to bring into balance, so that you have the strength and you can belong to your family and you don't carry the burdens. But you can also see that you're part of the bigger. There's respect, there's certain orders, and then you can move on in your life with this behind you in an orderly, respectful way. Because if you feel that your family, oh, my family, it's too many burdens and you step out of it, because I don't want to carry that, then basically what you're doing is you're not agreeing to one the fate to acknowledge that there's things. So you will unconsciously carry the burdens because you're trying to deny something. So it really looks at the system as a whole. When we look at it in business organization, it also looks at the system, but it looks on roles and functions, and it looks on hierarchies, and it also looks at who came first for ranking, but it doesn't mean hierarchical means, who came first, who needs to be acknowledged. There's dignity to that. So, for example, if you just very look simply in business organization, you can simply see who has the main position is the chief officer. And then generally, which is a general order, is like who's the admin? That would be the right hand man. So they kind of would come to the right side. And then what other, what other positions functionings then have its place, and then there may be some other subdivid functions, but there's a certain order. And some companies and organizations don't have to run on these principles, but their laws of success may not in the long run happen as much as helping serve what needs to be served in a business organization. So it's very simple to see, like maybe we might think this is the way it should be, but if we set up a constellation with representatives and just have the facts and just understand what's happening in the system and place them, maybe with symbols, and then we just see what happens without thinking what is the sense, who looks at who? Where does someone actually want to move? Then we start to see there's a certain real natural order that will come or one is out of place. So it's an inner picture that we put out to look at the hidden dynamics or to constellate. To see what's happening and how we. We can bring the approach is to bring some insight. And then further on they may be applied.
Mino Vlachos: And so what we see many times when we show up with 3Peak coaching & solutions, our consulting company is if there's an interpersonal problem, we see one person really acting out or whatever, proverbially, like kicking and screaming. And everyone's judging them and saying they're bad, they're wrong, they're all the. All the problems because of this one individual. Like they're the reason the company is really messed up. And we show up and we start to look at it systemically. And we start to realize that maybe that's not actually the truth. Maybe that person is acting out as a warning sign or as an indicator that something isn't necessarily working within a system. Mazen if I think about. We have a lot of clients where that's been the case. And I. What I've always appreciated is that it's easy for many of us, probably myself included, to get caught up. Maybe in the drama of. It's that person, they're bad. And you've always hung back and said, wait a moment, we need to see the whole picture. Maybe this individual that's crying out is not the villain, but a warning sign. Can you tell me a little bit about what you've noticed in a lot of the consulting work you've done when it comes to those situations?
Dr. Mazen Harb: If I want to answer first in really one sentence, when we have that symptom, I'll call it a symptom, which is someone, one person that acting out. This is a symptom of the organism. I would rather pay attention to why this has been seen as why this person is acting out so much. What we notice most of the time, the issue is not the person itself. The issue is actually even the fortune they had. That one person was able to be in that position. That looks weird or acting weird or having anger. Because the system is not balanced enough. Because there's something has been missed either from unfairness, injustice. So I think organism organization should be happy when they see that something is going wrong. And even more, if that person in that position, we say, okay, it's because of that person. And we fire that person and we bring someone else to that position. And that's someone else. Different personality, different background, still act the same way. This is a red flag. There is a problem in the organism, in the organization that makes the people in that position react in that way.
Mino Vlachos: I'll give an analogy. I'm going to talk about my friend. My friend, I love him. When we were in university, he started to have tremendous pain in his leg and debilitating, almost couldn't walk. And he went to the university hospital and they said, oh, you're having muscle tension. Here's some muscle relaxants. And so he kept taking these muscle relaxants and the pain in his leg just kept getting worse. Numbness, sharp pain, couldn't move. And finally he went to another doctor and he had slipped two discs in his back. And so the muscle relaxants were making it worse because they were actually relaxing everything in his body. And they said, if you continued, it could have actually made the problem way worse. And so the symptom is in the leg. The leg is crying out and saying, I'm in pain. But the actual point of the injury was his lower back. And I think it's the same thing where we were recently brought in to work with, we were brought in by the board of directors, and they're saying the CEO is creating a lot of drama. They're a control freak. You know, they're creating clicks. Like there was all this stuff that's about the CEO is failing. Horrible. And then when we started to dive into it and look at the board, the board was an absolute mess. So there was people who are coming and going. There's only a few that were actually dedicated, only a few that were there for the mission. A lot of them were there to get stuff on their resume about being a board member. They had no organization. They had set no vision or strategic priorities as a board. And so all of this stuff is happening at the board, and they're saying the CEO is the problem. And so the CEO might have stylistic issues and might also be contributing. It's a relationship field, so they might also have their stuff. But until we looked at the board, we could say, it's just a bad CEO, fire them, hire a new person. But that CEO might end up acting in the exact same way because they're beholden to these forces that are operating around them. And so that's why we have to look more holistically at the system as a whole, and we have to look at roles. And so I'm going to ask us to now talk a little bit about a personal example. Recently within our company, three peak, we decided to shift roles. And so mazena, very graciously and with a lot of courage, was our pioneer and was our head of sales for six months. And I was our head of marketing. And just last week, seven days ago, we said, you know what, actually we need to do a shift in our company. So now Mazen is the head of marketing and I, Mino, will be the head of sales. And what we've noticed is that there's something about being in a role. One, a role has its own energy signature, which has been fun for us to kind of trade notes Mazen and I about what the energy signature of our different roles as we switch them feels like. But also there's something about being in your right role that has a big impact on, I don't know what to call our soul, our spirit, our productivity, our skills. So Mazan, I would like to start with you, and then since you're our pioneer, and then I'll give my, my two cent about what I'm experiencing. What does it feel like to be what I hope is in your proper role versus a role that was important for us to go into, but might not have been the organic role for each one of us.
Dr. Mazen Harb: And now we're gonna go personal. So I'm like getting intimate here. Venerable.
Krisana Locke: I'm testing my sleep. Like I'm getting in cozy.
Dr. Mazen Harb: It's good, it's good. So to be in proper role is again, like it's, what's the say in English? Like it's a fish outside of water and then the fish back to the water. So, you know, the fish was outside of water in a small aquarium. This is how I experienced it. I could navigate that aquarium, but I knew I was not meant to stay in this small aquarium. And I was sometimes reacting and then, but then I'm like, I really belong to the sea. I really belong to the ocean. But I was doing the same thing that I would do in the ocean, which is apparently later on I understood. You told me apparently I was doing more marketing and awareness and then meeting people and networking. For me, I didn't see the difference because for me, all was the water until you and Kristana beautifully intervened. And actually you cut it and then you made me the explanation. But on top of that, I was also doing sales at the end. Sales, Washington tiring. That was very not natural. And then when I'm now my role and I'm like, oh, I did all of that, but I'm not asked to do that extra thing that brought so much contraction in the system. And I could see the contraction in my relating to both of you, in my relating to prospects, to network people, to friends. It was not natural. That's what I would say. It feels way better. It feels enjoyable, actually. I'm back to really enjoying my day to day work. I'm more honest. I'm back to full honesty with myself first, with you as my business partners and with everyone I meet along the way.
Mino Vlachos: And I'll share again, this is my story. So I'm not saying it's your story, but my story is that, you know, we went into these functions as a bit of a healing journey. So I know for me, with marketing, you know, I had this unconscious desire since a child to be recognized, to be seen for fame. And when I went into marketing, it helped me for the first time in probably my life, to start expressing, right? So I had to write content, I had to make videos. I put my face out there, I put my ideas out there, and I did all this, did all this. Six months, I made hundreds and hundreds of pieces of content across all these different social media platforms. And then I finally had an existential crisis. And it was like, why is this important to me? And I started to realize it's actually not that important to me. It's a childish, childish fantasy I was hanging on to. And when I dropped the outcome, it was very about getting something from outside me. When I dropped the fantasy and I dropped the outcome orientation, I realized I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want to market. It's nothing. It's not who I am. It's not my soul mission on this planet. And then I realized that actually, sales feels more natural for me. I like solving people's problems. I like telling them a solution. I'm okay with, like, telling them, this is what I think it's worth, and I'm okay to kind of be on their ass until they either sign or say, we don't want to work with you. So for me, actually, this shift, I felt so much more in my, like you said, back in water. And I think for both of us, what we've noticed is even within a week, our enjoyment, productivity, relaxation has skyrocketed. Like, things are flowing where, you know, with our company, we're trying to figure out how do we flow and get more money. And within seven days of this switch, we have four or five new deals that we're about to sign. You know, it's really something that was almost instant. The moment that we aligned, it starts to take off again. And there's all this excitement that Mazen is building for us in the communities that he operates in. So there's a flow that's happening all of a sudden. Whereas before something was stuck, and I'll even say, like, now I'm going to bring in another CEO we were working with. And we use this kind of methodology, I call it technology, to look at some of the systems that operate. And what was apparent to us is actually a role was missing in the organization. And because the role was missing, there was a lot of dysfunction within the company. And by even talking about actually we've identified a role is missing. All of a sudden things started to come into alignment. Order emerged. Happiness, Joy emerged. Krisana, what is. What happens when the role is missing? And what is the kind of what happens when we acknowledge something that's missing and bring it back into the system?
Krisana Locke: So when something is missing and needs to be there, then it's felt in the system. So other departments or roles take the burden, and then there's a bit of a burnout because they're taking on too much. So it's an unconscious, hidden dynamic and so they take it on. But then there's animosity, there's burnout, there's stress, there's overload. And then just by putting seeing through a constellation, we could start to see from the outlay of where the positions were, where the person constellating it had an inner impression he put out. We understand that you could start to feel there was something that was not in its right place. And then a solution came, like then what popped up was there is this needs to be. This needs to be brought, this role needs to be brought up. And actually, I think he did say, actually we were thinking to bring that, but not yet because we were busy with other things outside of the company. But if you did this, this is going to create such a flow and everyone is in their right place, their property place for a while, until if the company scales up, you have to look at it again. But then there's this sense of being in the right place. So the system has a harmony and then there's a humming that's like, you know, you fine tune a car. So this is what happened. And then there's a respect. When that position comes in, there will be a respect of that's been taken care. The burden of the person in another role really can go into their position and not do half of another position. So it was very interesting. It was like a relaxation. You felt like everyone felt, aha, this feels right.
Mino Vlachos: Yeah. As we're speaking, the 2024 Euro cup is on and I'm enjoying it very much. I love the Euro cup. It's one of my favorite things to watch. It's like the only thing I watch once every four years. And what I love about football, for our american friends, soccer, what I love about football is it's a system. When you look at those players on the field and they play, you know, we've made shifts in the last years where you can make more substitutions, but if you look almost like traditionally, like when I was growing up, those players played for 90 minutes. And yet by having the same amount of players on the field, they could employ different strategies. And how did they employ different strategies? They actually just start to move positions subtly on the field. The left back moves a little bit towards this area, the center back moves this way, the forward does this. They actually just rearrange the constellation. If you think about the stars, the order in which they're operating, even if you make a substitution, if you bring a different type of player on the field or a player that plays a little bit more up or back, it rearranges the entire strategy of the team. And so they operate in this kind of field with one another. And we actually use football in our last episode of intuition about the morphic field and how they're able to communicate intuitively with each other, to pull the back line and do an offsides. What I really kind of appreciate is that if someone's not doing their job on the field, then the other players need to start compensating, which means they have to start shifting their positions and rearrange the constellation. And I was watching, I forget, was it, was it England that was playing? And there was one guy who I was like, he was getting eaten alive. And he was a very small guy, he seems very nice, but he was just getting dominated. And I noticed how the other players had to change their playing position to support this little guy, you know, because he was just getting obliterated and by these, like, you know, big bodied fellows on the other team. And so when we play out of role, the whole system starts to change. And as Kristano was mentioning, when we start to play out of position, then we're doing two things at once. And that is how burnout happens. It's how dysfunction happens. It's how, when we talked about the warning system, that someone starts to kick and scream if we're always covering for the gaps and we will never know where in the system something needs to shift. And I see this all the time with companies where, because there's so much pressure to get an outcome, we have to make this amount of money by this amount of time, or there's going to be these repercussions or our investors. So the only thing that matters is we have to get to the money no matter what. They make these short term trade offs where they are going to cover the weak player or the missing role. And in that, the system rearranges itself and people are doing two 3510 jobs and the thing starts to create errors, but we don't see where the air is. We confuse the mess and we create more mess. That long term actually can impact the system. Mazen, was there something that was coming to you as I was sharing?
Dr. Mazen Harb: I will share it, yes. So we are now the 21 June 2024 and nor. It's summer. It's the first, it's the longest day of the year. It's called solistice for the. And then what's happening is you speaking about balance, right? And then compensation. Berlin had a kind of, what people might say, a bit chilly, like more fresh June. And the last two days it got like, it was very hot, like it went for the. And then, ah, cool. Summer is here. But now, when you spoke, when we smiled, there's thunderstorms rumbling all around. I don't know if the audience listened to it. And then, you know, you cannot not just respond to it, react a little bit. So nature is like, listening is like, yep, that's how I balance. It's always compensation. It was suddenly heated on something that was average, more of a whatever. Certain fresh temperature. People went out cool. That's what we have. And then they complete. And today it went up to 27, where it was in average 27, 28 when it was an average 18 degrees celsius. So, yeah, and then, so there's. I felt like just to pick, you know, draw the picture where we are. And then nature has to say, those systems we're speaking about, those principles are only were being given through natural laws. They're being given. Bert Hellinger, he went. He didn't create the system. Kristana will speak more about it if you want. But he went to tribes in Africa and understood how they do it. This is one of the oldest way of reconciliation and healing within tribes, so they don't go and killing each other endlessly. He brought just. I love the word you say. He brought light to it. He brought light to it. Kristana learned with him. I don't know this person. He left the body, but I know a person, but just this is nature in action. We just bring it. It's nature in our body. It's nature in our family, it's nature in our organization. And whatever doesn't follow the laws of nature, this is inorganic, and then it will fall. That's the idea. So it just. It's not a question. That's not philosophy. What we're speaking here, we're speaking about facts, universal facts, of how the physics and the biology and everything works and come together.
Mino Vlachos: Can you act, actually, on that topic? Because we are talking about systems, right? And one system that we all should be very intimate and familiar with is we are a system. I am a system, a biological system. And there's this concept of homeostasis, right? And so I'm wondering, Mazen, if you can just touch a little bit upon what is homeostasis? How does the body maintain homeostasis?
Dr. Mazen Harb: I realized, okay, I started my degrees, my university degrees with biology. So I'm very familiar with the word homeostasis. Then I thought, yeah, it's hard to speak with people, yes. When we have the homeostasis. And I realize people don't know actually what it is. So first I'll explain homeostasis, if it's the state, it's the milieu within the body, the biological body, when it's balanced. So the whole body to know before it's. Or the immune system, the nervous response, electric response, everything we have is to come back to homeostasis. So again, homeostasis, the different from me to me than to you. It's different to me now. When it was in winter, because my diet changed, my energy reserve changed, my expenditure changed. So how many stays, it's always evolving, but keeping that, my body is always imbalanced. So how the body start to protect itself when the hemostasis is destabilized? Does that make sense?
Krisana Locke: Yes.
Dr. Mazen Harb: So earthen have the same principle. Earth had a homeostasis. So today, when. When I'm explaining about the thunderstorm, when we see its tsunami, its thunderstorm, earthquake, yes, it's very sad, the repercussion, what happens. But actually, Earth is always balancing itself. So that means it has its own sensors within the whole planet that balance itself. So now coming back, so this is the homeostasis. It's the balance of our milieu. We're in that everything. It's in own place, and there's nothing to do. There is no protection to do, there is no survival to do. That's homeostasis.
Mino Vlachos: And so, as you mentioned, like with a body, maybe it's hormonal, right? Like, are there different mechanisms with the planet? There's these different. I don't even know what to call. There's so many different ways the planet balances itself. I'm not. I'm not an environmentalist, right? But with weather and temperature and percentage of oxygen, nitrogen, carbon in the air, like, there's all these different mechanisms, right? The air flows and the currents, and there's all these ways that the planet is able to find its homeostasis. And we talked about in social groups. Social groups find a balance, or they attempt to find a balanced social groups. It's programmed into us to find some sort of balance.
Dr. Mazen Harb: Yes.
Mino Vlachos: And so when we talk about the work of Bert Hellinger, right, where he brought light to these systems, you know, if I go back to the cavemen, right, the proverbial, the neolithic, they operated on these principles, but no one sat there and sat there with a notebook and said, these are the laws you must follow, right? Or one of my favorite documentaries, I talk about in, like, every other episode, is chimp empire, right? It's with the chimps in the Congo, and they organize social systems and they keep them in balance, and they form incredibly complex social relationships with different, completely different cultures. You know, I've talked about how in that documentary, one of them is a hierarchical, patriarchal system. Another one, it's an egalitarian system. And what's interesting, the egalitarian system is that every single chimp has a functional role within the tribe. One of them will go check the perimeters, one of them will go get food. One of them is the. I don't know, we'll go check on the babies. Like, every single male and female chimp has a role within the tribe. They all have a job to do. They all belong and they work together. And even when they go into war with the other tribe, they fight side by side. Everyone has a clear role. It's a very prosperous and internally harmonic. It's peaceful on the inside, but they do go to war on the outside. But it's like there's a lot of harmony inside. And when the young teenager starts to act up, all the males get together to teach them a lesson of, like, actually, this is your role, this is your position. In the hierarchical system, they actually don't all have positions. They don't have roles. So they're all fighting for this scarcity of roles. They think there's one position, the alpha, and so they're all constantly fighting and killing each other. And there's so much inner discord for this one position that when they do go to war, it crumbles. They lose every time because the males are killing each other inside the tribe. And so they're not strong outside the tribe. And so there's these principles. If I can't sit here and say the chimps, I would write them like clay tablets, the code of Hamurabi, I will write them. Principles of relating, principles of success. They know them internally, they practice them internally they try to find a balance internally. We have these within us. When we ignore them, as Mazen said, when it becomes inorganic, then an imbalance occurs and the system will try to correct itself. And so with that, there are many principles of success. In a moment, I'm going to ask Krisana to maybe speak to some of them, to give some examples. But one, we cannot give all of them because there's different complexities. Two, I cannot give it to you like it's a code of Hammurabi. Like I said, I can't give you this, like the clay tablets of Moses. Like these are laws that you can then go follow because it's very alive, it's situational. We have to be able to use the system as it is, the relation, no field as it is. But there's something that operates within us that allows a flow to happen, allows a success to happen. So, Krisana, we think about a business. What are some of the laws and principles of success in business? Or examples of laws and principles of success in business?
Krisana Locke: Again, with respect to order, there's orders of. Like in family system, there's orders of love, like who came first, who comes second, whose. But in business there's orders of hierarchy. Not for ranking. It's just like there's the chief officers, there's ones that come after. There's also orders of hierarchy. How long someone has been in the company. So that's a dignity. So there's a difference. There's also principles of balance and then there's compensation, so something's compensated. Then there will be a loss. And there's also principles of success with money and profits. One example is if money is injected into the company, but it's bad money, but it's still money, but they know it's not coming in respective ways. That will set up.
Dr. Mazen Harb: It's a dirty money.
Krisana Locke: It's a dirty money that will infuse it. Yeah, a dirty money. Somehow it's like, yeah, but it's just money. But then, now we've put into the system where that is coming from, where that now is part of the system. And then that brings in something to the system because it's bringing in something where something hasn't been respected or acknowledged. So there's many different laws and principles that will set up. So if you make too much profit, and it's just about profit, profit, profit, then there's the Ying yang. There's a laura for somewhere. There's going to be a loss if you haven't set up a service when you, you take care of everyone there. So it gets out of balance. So there's certain orders of, and principles of how to keep the wisdom of success also. Yeah. To honor. Well, I say this a lot. People who are successful in life are very much in tune with their mothers because it's about looking at those principles, at the fountain of life, the fountain of life that comes through for us. Well, basically, the first big success, I've said this yesterday to someone, what's one of your biggest successes in life? And he said, oh, let me think about it. And I said, the first and decisive success was you were born. And that is the first success. And the first other success was you came out of the birth canal to the light that was very successful, no matter what, in whatever conditions. But you said yes to that, to continue that. So there's a lot to do with being in tune of that flow of life energy that comes through. And so when you're in more in tune with your systems, family systems, and not denying them and understanding when they're also in balance, you also have a bit more success. This wisdom of success will be carried out into your business life, but there are certain laws of success. So just also everyone's in their right place, roles, functions. We also look at sometimes someone who has been fired unjustly will set up something to happen in the company because they weren't acknowledged for something, and then the other employees will feel safe, won't feel so safe. So it sets up a whole behavior, unconscious behaviors. So, yeah, it's a lot about respect and orders and balance and giving respect to that if you want to make your company healthy and to be in service of life. So some people just don't think that. They just think, yeah, I want to do this for plundering and taking. But business and success is you want to give something. You want to serve, you want to give in a way and with its values and principles, you know, just not taking, taking. So I won't go so deep in it because it's a whole deep structure.
Dr. Mazen Harb: On it, if I may. We'll just add to it something because for our listeners, like we're talking about those principles, we're not speaking about superstition, we're speaking about natural laws. But what bind them together is our unconscious thought process and the emotions that comes with it. You're gonna say, but if I did this, how can the other this happen? Oh, it's karma. It's coming. I'm like, karma. And there's, we're not speaking about power, that it's above us or power that's outside of us. We are the one who we create the cause and effect. You're going to say, but I didn't notice. I didn't do anything. I'm like, subconsciously and unconsciously, you're always having thought and reaction to those things. Those things will accumulate. When they accumulate to the moment that they rise to the, it's really big enough, then the brain and the body start interacting with the others, and then things starts happening. So, but somebody did this. That's why we failed. Nobody has the power over us, and there is no above power to change it. It's literally our unconscious processes. We are dynamic beings. Those principles, we kind of, they're there, they're present again. We are, we are, we are part of earth. We are actually, we are mammals. We're animals. We're animals, part of earth. So we follow the same rules. And that rules dictate us through our mind and body. Mind, spirit leads us to those repercussions.
Mino Vlachos: I wanted to share one thing on the what Krisana shared, and then I'll pick up where Mazen shared is even in our own company, there was a period of time where in the beginning, we were really winning a lot of contracts. And then we went to a period of not getting as many contracts. And I remember there was a point where I looked to Mazan and I was like, huh? For the first time, the amount weve won and the amount weve lost deals is the same for the first time because before there was an imbalance. And then I was like, you know, Mazen, I think we need to lose more. And some salespeople say we need to lose more because, okay, its all percentage and its all a numbers game. But I meant it in a different way, which is if were not losing enough, then there's not a balance, like, and we're not learning, we're not in some equilibrium. Like, we actually need to find a way to lose enough to justify the wins in a way.
Dr. Mazen Harb: Can I now that's a beautiful example. So here when you told me, I will explain biologically what happened actually that, because it took me time to understand that what you told me. But the idea is we were winning. We started our company, and immediately we have two, three big projects. And you see, we need to lose more. And I'm like, what is he talking about? Why would I lose more? And honestly, we didn't respect what you said. We didn't respect that principle. You're going to tell me? But then we lost a lot, actually, I believe. And then I'm like, but it's for the only reason. And I'm going to explain it psychologically. When we started, and we're winning, we thought we got it. We're someone, we're amazing. People will come to us. We claimed success just because it worked the first year. We didn't. So we missed respect of the game of business. We missed so many learning, and we claimed victory. So who did it? We did it because we claimed victory way, way, way ahead of our game. And actually, we start losing not as a punishment from within ourselves, because the challenges started to come, because we didn't knew that those challenges about to come. Then balance starts to happen again. Nothing happened from outside. We didn't notice that. It's bound to happen. And this is how it happened. That's the balance. It's very organic. It's come from within, but it's only this unconscious or blind spot we don't notice within our personalities and within our company.
Mino Vlachos: And so when we're working with businesses, most businesses, if I'm being honest, they don't understand these principles, and they try to break them in some weird way. And then once in a blue moon, I happened upon a company like Mazen and I were talking a week or two ago to a CEO and a chro, and I was like, God damn, this is a really well run company. And it's orderly, it's relaxed, it's joyful. I was. I loved it. I loved it. I was like, to me, it's like, and we might work with them, we might not. I don't know. You know, if they, if we help them with some small thing that they're working on, we can help them in some small way. But I sat there and I'm like, I'm great. If we don't win this client, because it's a proof point that you can run this really solid organization where people are respected, they go, they have a role, they do their job, they enjoy performing at their job, having some autonomy, some creativity. They leave, they go home. They have a good family life, they have some hobbies, they enjoy their life. It's solid, it runs really well. And I'm thinking, you know, Krisana, when I've heard stories about your father who ran a company, right? Every story I hear is like, God damn. It ran pretty damn well. It was organized. It was respectful. It was like, people had families that they could go to. It was like, it sounds amazing to me. And then we also have these other examples where, you know, and this is our livelihood. So I guess, in some way, I'm grateful that there's dysfunction because it keeps my bills paid. But, you know, on a broader scheme, I would like to not have the dysfunction. I go into companies, and there's all this, like, relating dynamics, systemic entanglements, and there's all these hidden loyalties and disrespect and snubbing. And I see everyone is in this, like, stress and burnout and, like, what's.
Krisana Locke: What.
Mino Vlachos: My role changes. Every other day, my boss is asking me to do her job, and now I'm needing. She's doing my job. This doesn't make any sense to me. Like, there's a click and there's a coup, and there's, like, all this drama, right? And I hear there's, like, a, you know, we've had. Because of this more kind of historically toxic, masculine kind of domination thing, we now are going to this other thing, which is like, I want to be the cool guy. I don't want to have a hierarchy. I don't want to have roles. No job descriptions. Everyone just does what they want. And in a very mature organization, it is possible, actually, for a non hierarchy to work, but each person has to be a leader of themselves. Different topic for a different day. So there are a couple examples out there where companies have been able to do this when everyone can be a leader of themselves. But, okay, let's assume that's not the case. And we see this like, I'm a cool guy. No roles, no hierarchy. We're all friends. We're family here, right? So we have these two contrasting models, right? We have this, like, we do this, like, very sloppy, kind of incestual, relating dynamic systems dynamics. And then we have this, like, very orderly, joyous kind of clean operating system. Chrysana, you've worked in both. I also purposely used the example of your father's company because it's a big inspiration for me personally as a business person. What do you see are some of the differences? And how do we get to maybe a little bit more of that, what your father was able to build?
Krisana Locke: I asked him one day, and I said, how did you know your business was successful. He's 93 now. He's retired. He says, why do you want to know? And he goes, I said it was, and he said he got a lot of support from his parents, but not with money. He just had a healthy, supportive parents that encouraged him. One thing I did notice is when I grew up, he never brought his work home. He never was. Business was outside. Family was family. And it wasn't a, it was just, he was very happy and creative. So he had, yeah, he was the founder director. He was also, as he said, you know, you have to take the role of the boss, as he said. And he had, I said, did you have any issues with his teams? And he says, no, they all got along really well. And he said, and we had good communication. He says, but as the role in, you know, as the, in the managerial, the CEO position, you know, you have to give direction, but you also have to also listen. So he had a small company, but you could tell that, you know, it was also more family oriented in those times. Like, he also knew that they had family. So it was still in this structure where it was very family oriented. And also he did care for the employees and they stayed forever. They became my uncles, so, and they're all very happy. And he said, what about some, some contracts or that didn't work? And he said, yeah, well, some will not happen, but you just have to move on and you don't stay identified in, yeah, you get frustrated, but if you're going to get identified, you get stuck and you learn. So I understand that he never shared with me or he never said I'm super successful, but he had very intact principles of, inside of him how to run a business. And he also said, yeah, there's failures and successes. And he always told me, don't say you're successful yet because you're up for a failure, not in a negative way. He says, there's both, you know, so.
Dr. Mazen Harb: This is where it comes from.
Krisana Locke: Yes.
Dr. Mazen Harb: All right.
Krisana Locke: It's kind of like out of the earning of what you've gone through, the experience and the reflection.
Dr. Mazen Harb: On a physical plane, on the physical business. I agree, but this is where disagreement happened. We lived in the same household and, and for me, like, again, that's the beauty about different, us interacting as different beings. For me, every day is a success in a sense of my duty and I do my purpose and I thrive for more, but I live in that success in a sense, regardless if I succeeded or not. So it's an ongoing semantic discussion. Yeah, but it's, again, I'm sharing it in the context of work. If we're always waiting to see success in the physical gain in the future, that also another principle that strain the company because you will have more depressed and then not so much purpose, no much thriving, and then even performance will go down. So it's really more how we put the people in the right place so they can, they see a daily success even with small tasks. Small again, now I'm going funny on leadership development, but. But, yeah. So how to succeed with your people, with those, with the staff, for the people who really do the work that they really focus on that what they're doing and the success on a daily basis, regardless the mistakes of the whole organism, which will bring success on the long run again, like the inner, the outer, and then the bigger picture.
Krisana Locke: And one more thing I would like to add. When I said, being in tune with the fountain of life energy, he really respected his parents. Like, there was a love, there was, like, there was no there. I mean, there. Yeah, it was a. It was a very healthy, wholesome, you know, parents, no, maybe they had their own behaviors, but I sense, like, it was a really nice upbringing for him, you know, so that also determines and also his leadership skills. He's very pragmatic and practical and so. But he did say to me he either chose to study music at the music conservatorium or he decided to go into creating his own business when he was quite young and he learnt on the way. So I. Of course. So in that case, there's an inner sense for me. Business is not scary business. There's already kind of a healthy blueprint for me that I'm not aware of, that I carry, and I'm really. I really acknowledge that. That just comes through to me. But you can also learn those, learn the healthy principles and have a healthy, intact business or organization or success. But it's a lot to do with self leadership, you know, your inner leadership, being a leader, understanding strategic thinking as we go through and how to adapt. So. And then also looking at the bigger system, there are many, many things that come, that take place in this.
Mino Vlachos: Mazen. I'm going to ask you something similar. If we have two businesses we've been talking about as organisms, and you see one where there's just a lot of hidden relational dynamics, there's that kind of burnout. People don't know what their position is. People are doing each other's jobs. People are kind of being hired and fired for the same positions. Things are missing. There's this general kind of stress. And then you see another, you know, company where we've now interacted with a couple, like the one we talked about a couple weeks ago, where, man, like, I want to work there. Like it's really just flowing. Like there's an ease, there's a doing, but an ease at the same time. There's an accomplishment, but also a relaxation at the same time. It's just functioning, it's just working well. They're changing, but it's not like they are. There's no crisis, they're just incrementally improving because things are going well. What do you see on a systems level, a holistic level? What is the difference between these two examples I've painted?
Dr. Mazen Harb: I'll start with the one, because it's very tangible, the one that we really spoke with two weeks ago, because it happened that I know the person and I really cherish him very much. I know him as a more of a private person, actually, through friends. And, and I always was astounded by his sweetness. I was like, he's a sweet, gentle, kind person. I was like, that's, that's really rare. And, but I never spoke about him, about, about business until we met. But then when I realized, I'll give that example, they have a company since 1965 or something like that, the sixties. And then it was his father who created it and then he took over. So for me, when I hear like this, I mean, oh my God, the father created a very healthy foundation. And then he didn't miss the steps, regardless that he was not following, as you said, it was not following any rules, but the rule of the inner understanding of the inner wisdom that we contain within us. And nature is always mirroring back to us. So he took that, I will call it this empire. Imagine one can have in a big empire, yet be sweet. And the principle of it, it's. I bet they had to, in a capitalist society, they had to go into competition. What did they do? Healthy competition. So competition existed, but in a healthy way, while respecting the human and nature first. So. And then when you see like this, and even I was shocked, I think you too, I imagine Mino, when we realized for the last 60 years, 40 years, he only everything was flowing. By the way, they have different branches all over Europe, the gulf and a bit of Africa. And it's only this one man that he inherited. And then he had very relaxed, you never see him stress. He has a family, like all is good. And then he told us, oh, yeah, I felt it's time to bring head of HR. And I'm like, what? How? And I probably need to ask Crisano, so how are you? How? Like, for all the success happened, the HR department started six years ago. So it was very surprising that a company could be so much thriving. That means they followed without noticing all the principles of success and respect. They had direction, they had the vision, the mission, and they respected other being and the. So then when you say, okay, they brought the HR. So when you resonating already on those principles, then the HR lady, which older of age, not a young one, she started speaking and I was like, oh, my God, of course he brought someone with that caliber. She's amazing. I'm like, she. Within six years, she. Because I'm always like, HR? Yeah. What's missing? How can we help them? They miss something. And I'm like, I said, I'm like, wow, she's on top of it. Within nothing. She was able to merge because the foundation was good and they're flowing, they're thriving and it continues. So for me, I don't want to explain it, I don't want to dissect it, I want to give science to it all. What I know. And those people never thought about any principle, yet they were in their own, they were, they had integrity of a human within living on nature. That's it. And they use healthy competition. They did everything they have. It's a big multi million, multi million company and multinationals. So one doesn't have to know all those principles. One need to go to integrity. So this is that section.
Krisana Locke: Wow. The father must be very happy.
Dr. Mazen Harb: Yeah. You know more because you really, really, for the last 2030 years, Krisana, you did all those constellations, you know those principles. Me, I know it more simplistically. I know it worked. That mean there was the basic ones, but yeah, you know. Yeah, it's happy to share that this kind of success. So the other version, I'm like, you know, when we speak, look, when the body is doing well, I'll give example to everyone who's listening. You're like, you're full of. When you're feeling, when, when all is good, you lose gratitude. Ah, you start complaining and you thought, I don't have much energy or whatever. Suddenly you get a cold and a fever. You realize, oh, my God, I'm not able to go to the toilet. I don't have motivation, I'm disappearing. Then you realize what was given, what you thought it's given. It was a tremendous, on a millisecond, constant process work within a body, to keep homeostasis. Homeostasis requires tremendous amount of energy that requires always following the natural law of this planet, of this body, of nature, and of the human body. So to be healthy, and now I have energy to speak to you, this is to say, yeah, but that's easy. I'm like, how come easy? Give me one virus, and then you really know how much the body is constantly thriving and going toward. So that's, I'm not gonna say that's edit. So, in a business, and then you can get really out of balance for multiple reasons. And that's my answer to the businesses, when they come out of balance, out of homeostasis, they stop thriving. There's so many reasons. There's so many reasons. So, but it's a system itself reacting by showing something is wrong, because there always a chance to recorrect, probably until bankruptcy, and even probably bankruptcy, what happens? Probably it, you know, the body dies as well. So I would say it's always a common system, and the system always trying to speak to us to evolve as beings, and then to go to full integrity, respecting earth, respecting this body, and respect other fellows, yet enjoying healthy competition in the market. We have.
Mino Vlachos: One things I talk a lot about with our clients is that, you know, we have, almost every organization has an organizational chart. There's a piece of paper that has everyone's name on it that shows the structure of the company, right? So they will come us and say, I don't know what you're talking about, because actually, I have all the functions, I have all these roles, I have all these boxes with people's names in them on a piece of paper. And one thing I always kind of point out is that just because you drew on a piece of paper doesn't make it true, and that people rarely operate within the boxes that you drew on a piece of paper. This is magical thinking. This is purely magical thinking, that just because I drew it this way, this is how people operate. People form networks and they form groups. And unless these principles are respected, these hierarchies that are hidden, these secret loyalties, will start to run the show. And when they run the show, then it's a kind of a shadow network, a shadow organization that emerges. And so, as a leader, when I started the podcast and said that this is what will make or break you, is if you don't understand that you're not just running an organization, but there are probably shadow organizations within your own company, then you're not going to be able to run the show. I just. This just popped in my head. But the other day, a few weeks ago, I read a book about the financing World War Two. The money aspect of World War Two. It's a crazy book. Like one of the. It's like it's written like a spy thriller. And one of the things that I found interesting is that within the. If I give a quick example, I won't bore people. But in the United States, there's the president, and then there's different departments. So the Treasury Department was very much against fascism before the United States got involved in the war. They were so against fascism that the treasury department wanted the United States to join the war. The employees, right? They really. The employees really wanted to join the war in the State Department. So the diplomacy, there was a lot of fascistic kind of people because the United States also had a fascist wave. So the people. The employees. I'm talking about employees, not the leaders, right? But the employees in the State Department were pro nazi before the US joined the war. And so the employees in the treasury department kept putting footnotes in treaties and in trades to cause chaos and to cause conflict with Germany. And the State Department would go and remove everything that could cause any conflict with Germany because they didn't want a war to emerge with Germany. And so this is. The employees are putting these, like, footnotes in. And some of the craziest things in history I found out from this book, happened because they happened in these footnotes. So later, ten, whatever, five years later, when the United States made the dollar the reserve currency of the world, they did it by putting a footnote in a treaty somewhere that no one read. And. And they legally made it binding that you have to use the US dollar to trade everywhere. So there's, like, crazy stuff that can happen, but you have these within the government. Franklin Delano. Franklin Delano Roosevelt, FDR, his policy was, we're going to be neutral. We're going to be neutral. He told the people who ran the departments, we're going to be neutral. We're going to be neutral. So officially, legally, officially, the president, probably in their heart, we're going to be neutral. And yet there's these secret hierarchies that existed within the us government that were saying were for Germany and against Germany. And there's this push pull in this tug of war. And ultimately we put a fucking footnote in one of the trades with Japan that cut them off from oil. And so then they did Pearl harbor to be able to attack us because they didn't have oil reserves. So the United States caused its own entry into the war and it happened at an employee level. The president of the United States didn't know any of this. The leader on top didn't know any of this, because there were secret hierarchies running the show. If you're the CEO of an organization, you do not know what your employees are up to day to day. You do not know what their motivations are day to day, especially if you leave it unconscious. If you just think you have an.org chart, and I'm sure the government had an.org chart in World War Two where they said, we have a state Department and we have a Treasury department. But you need to understand the loyalties of these individuals and the motivations and what's happening with them, or you don't know who's pulling the strings. Really, it's just some accountant from like Minnesota caused World War two to happen and you as the president have nothing you can do to stop it. This is why we need to look at systems, we need to look at what's happening under the surface. And so wherever you see all this dysfunction, there is a shadow thing going on and people are acting out. And some of it is probably less consequences than going to World War two, but there's still consequences for you and your leadership. And this is where I think CEO's of presidents, prime ministers that don't respect these rules and principles and laws, and don't dare to look at the relating dynamics and the system dynamics, you will then be at the mercy of them. And we have no clue what the people under us actually want. We've shown up to organizations with three peak, where there's all kinds of clicks, all kinds of coups, there's all of these dynamics, because these principles were not followed, they were not looked at. There was something running in the shadows. I would like to hear from each of you, because I know it's an impassioned rant. Mazen, is there anything that sparked in you, as I just shared?
Dr. Mazen Harb: I would like to hear first, Krisana, on the principle, do you like to start?
Krisana Locke: You can.
Dr. Mazen Harb: No. I was surprised because it's just the history is always written in a way that it makes sense linearly. But we really. And that's probably why most of the time when I go and I work with a few people, I have some friends who are really trying to work on lots of sustainability, lots of really taking care of cities and the planet and all of that. And then when I said, I spoke about the hierarchy, he said, no, we don't believe anymore in that hierarchy. But I told him, okay, I understand theoretically, but you know, that it's. There is dynamic of the humans. So he believed that everyone who worked through the UN and everyone worked through really putting those very important requirements that's asked to bring a sustainable living. That we can be a team and then do it well. And I'm like, but what about dynamic, personal dynamic. My personal story. People are not good or bad. People relate to the outer world as a mirror. How to relate to themselves. It's not just a surprise. Oh, I. They have a certain way of relating themselves a certain way that they relate to the earth and objects around a certain way to relate to people in a specific way. They relate with intimacy, with their lovers and then with their parents. And those are not random. This is. This is really belief system ways of understanding. So for me, when I hear that, it's just probably I need to bring that story again and again. When some. When people tell me, no, we are in super sustainability. And then we don't want hierarchy and then we move it and then we help the society. I'm like, you can help the society only when you help the organization to be aware of its own dynamics. And then he looked at me is like, I never saw it. It's written anywhere for us is we know what's the vision mission. And then we go for it. And we all believe in the same cause. And then the discussion ended. And then here, when you're giving this example, it's only dynamic of things. And then wishes and belief system that make wars happen. And actually, because this is the powerhouse. That's the force. The force of every company is the workers, is the employees. The force of a manufacturer factory is the people who really work hard so they really can move the energy however they want. So yeah, that's what comes up to me. Just being a strong leader or being on a hierarchical system, or being on a non hierarchical system. I will say it bluntly means it doesn't mean much anymore in this society. We're living because look what happened to this planet. Look, now everybody want to recorrect back to regeneration. We need to understand ourselves and we need to understand our dynamics. We need to understand how we influence the system around us. Regardless if we're on top where others. If it's a flat bringing awareness to relationship, human relationship in a relationship, in relationship with an organization. That's the only way to support this planet.
Mino Vlachos: I'll give an analogy for turning to Krisana is we return to the body so our body is made of cells. Every single organ is made of cells. But if you say, I don't want organization, so then there's no way for me to have a heart and a liver, because the cells organized into tissues, into organs, into systems within my body. So we need organization, and the cell has an important job it needs to do. When I ask the cell to not perform its actual function and then somehow go do the job of a very different cell, I'll be honest, I'm not a biologist, but the only word I know for that is cancer, which is I'm asking a cell to not perform its functions, actually to do something on its own. And when I look at organizations and I see these shadow operations, and I see that there is no organization, there is no clarity of roles. I'm asking each person to cover for the next and to do a job that's not theirs. I see this as organizational cancer. This is what you're asking your people to do, and disease will spread. That's my personal opinion. I'm not saying that's the truth, but that's how I see it. Chrishan, I gave the example of the United States where it's like you had a system and you had different motivations within parts of that system that clashed with each other. There was no open communication. There wasn't a lot of self leadership. There was just, I have a. I have a desire. I have an instinct. I'm gonna go do it, even if it means fighting with my own coworkers. I'm gonna go against the president of the United States. I'm gonna do all kinds of things because I think it's right. And ultimately, I went into war, and I don't know, maybe it's good they joined the war. Maybe it's bad. I have no clue. I'm not here to debate the history of things. All I'm saying is, what happens when these shadowy kind of parts of the organization, these secret loyalties, are running the show?
Krisana Locke: We have to look deeper, because secret, like, we really one. When you're looking at constellations, you really have to first respect yourself first so that you can respect others in the system, so you can look clearly, you can see clearly, and you can see the bigger picture. So if there is a shadow operation happening, so something has happened somewhere for that to happen, there has not been responsibility or something to be looked at. So this has been brought up. But I got really lost in that whole story. I was like. I went really deep. I was like, it's. It's what happened between for and against in the system? It was also an organization. What went wrong in the organization? Then there was countries, there was the second world war. There's a lot of immigrants that come to America. There's a lot of loyalties to Europe. So I went really deep. I was like, if I was going to look at it, there's lots of things being played out in that. But back to when there's a shadow happening, it's happening because something is. There is not accountability somewhere else in the system that needs to be looked at and brought into balance or to be the burden or that that's the shadow needs to be seen and where it needs to be, and responsibilities and injustice need to be owned somewhere. This is an idea, no blame, but this creates a balance. We also have systems of countries, and we have big loyalties to countries. Europe, Europeans that came to the United States, they're the children of Europe. So this needs to be some, I'm talking about, you know, so there's some respect of what came first. So there's very hidden loyalty. So honestly, I. Yeah, that, that would be an interesting case study for me, but not to speculate, but it's very interesting. There's lots of things happening in companies when things have not been acknowledged. They can set up in the system that things get played out and it's looking to be seen, revealed, and people unconsciously will act them out.
Dr. Mazen Harb: I would like to add, actually just very important keywords, which we work a lot on it. When people, again, our work, it's a little bit, I hope one day we are able to communicate our work in a better way. But I believe it's so important. I'm, again, I'm really responsible of the marketing. I'm very short on words of the importance of it, because only people start to come to us when the crisis happened. And I guess just, why don't you come before again? So it's not the people, it's us. We're limited yet to show the solutions and communicate it. But what really comes up actually in this conversation and really in the ad is the vision and the mission. If an organism come together, it has to have similar vision and mission. In the case of the United States of America, what happened is few of those departments lost and forgot the vision and the mission. And the leaders in each department have loyalty, chose loyalty outside of the vision and the mission. Imagine the government is one unit. They had one vision and mission, and that was not respected. Okay, so this is what happens in companies. We do have loyalties but when we come to accept in a company, accept a vision and a mission, if our loyalties is outside of this mission and vision and mission, they this is really will bring disorder, right? Order, disorder, ease, dis ease. So there is reason, the same as in the body, there is ease, then dead disease. That means something needs to be shifted. So here where leaders where again, like the people who are more responsible leaders think that, oh my goodness, I'm a leader. No, someone is a leader. He's not hired from an employee, he's not better. We misunderstood in the patriarchal society. If I'm on top, on the head, so I'm everything. No, if you're on top, you still need your feet. So the idea is to understand our role as leaders. Leaders mean someone is responsible to keep the vision and the mission. In order to do that, to check that every employee, it's he, she, they are in their respective functioning role. That's their job. So the leader of every department, their job is like the immune system within the body to take care if someone is have loyalty outside of that mission, and that's fine. And then really bringing back balance. So we don't need to hit crisis. If every single one who's have a responsibility to take care of one department, one small task, even the employee take care of one small task and then keep to its function. Role, the role, the function division and the mission, and have a system of accountability, those things don't happen. We don't separate, we don't create a cancer, we don't go in disharmony or in this disease. So it's really, it's a new, it's a question now. It's the other day, Mino, you called it the safety revolution. Now it's a question of a full inner revolution. Everyone want to want to change the society, bring it sustainable, help climate change. They still want to revolt outside. I'm like, let us revolt inner and understand within our systems. Are we working with or against oneself, with or against the organism, with or against the society, with or against nature? Simple questions, simple answers, and an organization. Coordination starts to happen from there.
Mino Vlachos: And so I deeply, deeply empathize with what you said of not having the words sometimes to explain what we do. The irony is what we have on our hands to is one of the most streamlined, beautiful methods to reveal all of these dynamics for you in very rapid time. And so you don't need to go and learn 49 different ways of thinking concurrently. You don't need to go do interviews with 10 trillion people. You don't need to do all this, like, design stuff, actually. We can support you and sit down for even a couple hours and map everything for you. So the irony is the process is very innovative, very breakthrough, very seamless, craziest results I've seen in my life. Last episode, intuition. And we talked about family constellation a bit. It's the best tool methodology I think I've ever used for my personal development. It's one of the best things when we do it with CEO's and companies and boards, that changes the whole organization. And yet I don't have the words to talk about it. I don't know how to explain it to someone. We're just emerging as a leadership field into talking about systems thinking. And I'm like, we don't need to do systems thinking. We're doing systems mapping. We're doing systems reconciliation. We're doing all of this in kind of amazing record time. And so there's this bit around, like, even this part is hard to explain to, but I'm going to go and take us a step further because there's so many things we can do with our company three peak that I don't know how the fuck to talk about. But I'm going to push us to say there's even more beyond this. And this is where I would like for our last little section to talk about quantum, quantum mechanics, the quantum realm. Because I want to stretch the imagination and the understanding of anyone who's listening to say what we know is just a drop in the ocean. And there's so many more things that we can be bringing to help you and your organization, but we just haven't figured out the right way. It's our failure. We haven't found the right way to talk about it yet. We haven't found the right way to communicate it. And so one of the things when we talk about people, systems, we kind of, the word we, the phrase we use is tapping in, right? Like we're able to tap into a system to understand that there's this collective knowledge share and that there's a way to merge with this and receive information. And like, for instance, yesterday I was putting a proposal together to do a board work, to work with a new board. And when I went to sleep, I had tapped in, and so I started having downloads and downloads and insights and insights, and it's like I couldn't. It's like I had plugged into their matrix and I didn't know how to unplug myself. And so I couldn't. I couldn't, couldn't really fall asleep fully, deeply and go into a relaxed state because I was like getting all of this information. So these information systems exist external to us, as we've said multiple times in this podcast. And there's a way for us to plug in to the different matrices and gather information, gather insights. So, Mahzen, I don't know what it is you'd like to share. We talked about the morphic Field last episode, now this episode, but I want to talk. Is there anything from a quantum perspective that you would like to share with us when it comes to how we can send, share, receive information, insights about relating dynamics, system dynamics, interpersonal, like everything that we're talking about today, I'm laughing.
Dr. Mazen Harb: And my heart is pumping a little bit more. Of course I'm alive and it's pumping a bit more than usual. I'm like, oh my God. So I will ask you that. I will try to share some things. Let me know if it's too far, too much. This goes back to all the consciousness work research I do, and lots of people does on this planet. But again, the language of it, for just the mind, for the really just to understand it linearly, is very difficult sometimes. But I will start with the most difficult. To understand the quantum field, you have to understand that. I will say that time and space don't exist as how you think it. And time and space is a construct that when they come together, all information exists beyond time and space. Bear with me, I will give an example. A mother in Nigeria, her daughter is in Miami. Something happens to the daughter, the mother feels something is weird, something, the intuition of the mother, a lot of example of like this, the mother that felt something wrong happened that I was really battling with it very early in my teenagerhood because I was very, I came from science, I came from really, really european, one of the biggest european schools of science and mind. And I was like, okay, I really want to unravel it. How is it possible that I feel my lover when through two continents? How is it possible that before someone calls me, I feel that person it wants to call? How is it possible I get an information through a friend, but it didn't tell me on a phone or anything? And this is where we're going. This is before I understood the quantum physics. Again, it's science that's a quantum physics opposite to the Newton. Newtonian physics, newtonian physic is everything about the physical reality. Everything is about mass, everything about the structure of reality in its more dense form. So again, I'll go back a little bit to the greek time is the aristotle philosophical understanding versus the platonian and the socrates. And that's why the two schools went against each other at the end. Europe took over the Aristotle way, that reality exists only when it's seen, only when it's felt, and that's its own purpose. I'm like, yes, but there's so many laws that has to be respected that they really play it again. Our sleep time. Where do we get our information? Why I feel where my parents are, in a sense, an emotional why? I noticed that I might be arguing with my partner even before meeting my partner. Why? Many, many, many things. What is intuition? Where does it come from? And those what we call synchronicity. Oh, I was thinking about it and the song popped up again. I'm not gonna go into that realm. It's a very real branch of physics. It's not before we used to call. It's esoteric. It's the east. We're talking about physics. I invite people to go do some research, start slowly, do some YouTube things, follow some professors doctor who explaining the quantum world, the all. Like the string theory. There's so many theories out there. Einstein's work, relativity, string theory. Yeah. So that's what I want to start with in order this to happen. That physical, the newtonian physics, there's something that is holding it together and it's the energy of it through the electromagnetic field. And that can be also registered or can be how to say, like, yeah, we can really feel it. The resonance is called the Schumann resonance. On in earth, it's more the heartbeat of earth every day. Like there's human resonance where you check the vibration, the electromagnetic field, and then certain things happens before it's tsunami or before anything happens. The Schumann resonance changes. Like, even when something happens in 911 has been discovered that the Schumann, I hope I'm saying the right word, Schumann, but we'll check it later on. So please, if I'm not saying do your studies and then check what's the right apparatus, it's used. And then, you know, then the vibration went bigger. So I felt like just sharing a little bit here and there. To more intrigue. I'm not telling that's the truth. I'm intriguing you towards the truth. I'm not the one who want to open this world for you. I'm here to intrigue you. So if you hear it and say, but that's too much, I'm like, good. If you hate it, that's very good. And if you believe it, 100% know that you're doing something wrong. I'm inviting you to go open your minds and do some research about a world you exist within. You came from it, and that belongs to you. And you go to it every single night, and then you use it with every single intuition you have. So I go back to the all say, know thyself, know your physical material and your energetical. The physical, that's energetical as well.
Mino Vlachos: And a topic that is a way, way, way bigger topic and not necessarily one for us to open fully. There's other people that, as you mentioned, are. That's their whole world. Expertise is that realm. But all to say that we are interconnected. And Mazen, when you. In the beginning, I'm going to start to do a bit of a summary. When you first started to talk about, like, okay, we're in. When fish are in the water, okay, they're in. This thing that's like. Has more of a viscosity. So we can understand that there's a. There's something they're in and we're in air. I'll even go beyond that. Is like, we are a part of the universe. We exist in this fabric of matter and antimatter, like we are a part of the whole. And so these ideas that we are separate is truly an illusion. We have all made of the exact same atoms and neutrons and electrons, and we're all in this fabric together. And there are capabilities and skills I truly believe that we have. That we either have forgotten or don't understand, or we hide them. But I truly believe there's so much capacity for skills and capabilities that we are not taught, ranging from even something we now are starting to talk about is like the emotional intelligence. But I think there's even way more. Like, when we talk about these systems, this is an intelligence that does exist within us. But we either have forgotten the rules or been conditioned into trying to be inorganic and break the rules. But when we respect the integrity within ourselves and the integrity of the system, then life flows, abundance flows, success flows, love flows, respect flows, and there's an ease. And so this is our attempt to start to talk about and kind of decode one of the most potent methodologies, technologies, tools that we support to bring to organizations and businesses. I hope it's a valuable attempt to show that as individuals, we are a part of a system. We are part of human groups. And those groups, there is corrective mechanisms that exist within our brain and body so that we can operate in those groups so that we can operate as a collective and that when we ignore certain principles, we do bring dysfunction and disease, because it is the system's attempt to recorrect and rebalance itself. And so if you're an organization that feels chaotic, somewhere, something was missed. And the amazing thing about it is, if you can just figure out what was missed, you can correct it. You can bring balance, you can bring intention, awareness, and light to expedite that balancing act. Because what can happen is the seesaw. If we go in one direction, we compensate in the opposite direction. And the see saw continues. The pendulum continues. How do we bring the pendulum back to center? How do we bring the equilibrium back to center? For me, it's not so magical. It's not so out there. We can do it, actually, because amazing people who came before us brought to the light certain ways that we can look at these things. And we don't need to wait for a complete revolution of the self. We don't have to wait for people to become really incredible self leaders. We don't have to wait for you to understand quantum mechanics. Actually, there's a way, as I said, to bring a four dimensional concept into a three dimensional plane through this amazing method that physically maps the dynamics so that anyone on the planet can see it and instantly realize, oh, my God, this is what's happening in my organization. This is how people are relating to each other. This is the secret networks and the secret hierarchies that exist. These are the loyalties I never understood. This is what's motivating people. This is why I can't find the right person for the right role. This is why we're having burnout. All of these questions of, like, why? Why, why? What do we do? What do we do? What do we do? And then let's start a workshop or a training or an intervention or an online thing or a yoga class. Of course, it doesn't work because the issue is systemic. You have to change the system to get a different outcome. I go back to the football field. If you rearrange the players, you'll get different outcomes. So the manager on the side can scream and yell and shout all he wants, but until the players reorganize in a new system, the outcome will be the same. So if you want a different outcome, look at the structure, look at the system, look at the roles. Look at how people occupy those roles. And then after all of that, we can talk about stylistic differences. We can talk about if a leader is selfish or empathetic. We could talk about if they have the skills of communication. But if you're not setting them up for success by having the functional system in place, then it doesn't matter because the results will repeat themselves. Or you end up putting an amazing person in a role where they feel completely powerless. Because they're beholden to the forces of the board and their management team, and the employees secretly doing something stupid, and the customers and the communities, because they haven't understood that they're in a system. So they think that they're constantly under pressure, that they're constantly the victim of all these bodies putting forces upon them. And that's one of the big reasons I think we see CEO's with this learned helplessness thing, which is like, I actually have no control over my life. I am beholden to the board and my employees and my customers. There's nothing I can do. I actually am just a puppet. And I would say that there is a way to transform that. One is learn how to be a self leader with full integrity. Autonomous. Two, take a look at your systems. Your human systems, as we say in three peak trademark, trademarked, patent pending, are functional human systems. That's something that can really transform an individual experience, a collective experience. This is one of the most important topics. I'm so happy we got a chance to finally talk about it and start to find the words, because we can start to talk about the symptoms, but it's hard to find the right words to describe what's actually happening at times, because it is new. We're talking about is a revolution, in a way. And so I'm going to ask each one of us to give our final thoughts. Anything that really comes to mind. I'm going to actually ask Mazen to start and just share. What would you like to leave us with today?
Dr. Mazen Harb: Very specific last note, because you really shared what is needed to conclude that. A reminder. I'll give the example of the water. We have a three main generator of energy that emits and receive within the body. We have more, but three. The strongest, our sexual body, our sexual energy. So where our sexual organs are, our heart and our brain, they emit electromagnetic. They connect to the outside, they start to synchronize whatever outside of it. So imagine if you're in water. When you throw a pebble in the water, it has a vibration. The world, the universe, is vibration. When you have a thought about someone, you're sending a vibration. That vibration will be received. When you feel something, you sense something, either sexually, emotionally or intellectually. We have to let go of the illusion that there is secrets, because there isn't. There's no secrets because the more people they start to connect within themselves through self awareness, probably meditation or any other tools, for example. And I know very well, Kristen and I, like we should like we receive information not because we're special, because we start to see the nuance. Oh my God. Information is always received. It's like the Internet, intellectual. Through thoughts, it creates a ripple. And imagine if it's directed to someone. And imagine if directed to someone. On top of that, there's emotion about that, thought about that someone. We're doing something. It's time to take responsibility of the effect of our thoughts and emotions and feelings. We do not live separate from the rest of us. We're all like in water. Whatever we feel, think, speak, act will have a vibration that will change the system, that shapes the system in a way or another. And that's the truth beyond the illusion of separation.
Mino Vlachos: I love that. So just quickly what came to me is if there are no secrets, then all that's left is lies. Because we can't hide the information. All we can do is not be honest about it. Yes, Krisana, what would you like to leave us with after this podcast?
Krisana Locke: I would like to say that what? Just to pick up, when you said if something's missing, you include it. What you have to do to become whole is to look at what is missing. And then once you bring it into light or see it, to acknowledge it, to bring it in. Just as the past has to be acknowledged, that has happened, so that the present, you can acknowledge that you're in the present. So all the pieces come together, so there's the wholeness, so it also is the same as the drop in the ocean is the ocean and the ocean is the drop. So we're all interconnected and connected, and so that's what I would want to leave everyone with. And also there's time to know for me when it's enough and enough for today, for me and for me to go back in and to, to feel that from the sharing. So, thank you.
Mino Vlachos: It's a topic I'm very passionate about, so I'm sure I could really go on a rant here, but where I truly leave it is on the surface. I said at the very beginning of podcast is, it's a topic that can sound boring. We're talking about structures, roles, functions, and it might be the most important topic that we have yet to speak up about. And so when something is not going right, my invitation is to look at these elements, the systems, the roles, the functions. As boring as they might sound, they are the key to success in an organization. And go beyond the piece of paper. Writing on a piece of paper does not make it real. Look at how people are actually relating and behaving and the network that they create with one another. I think you'll find some interesting stuff there. And so with that, we bring this podcast to a close. Thank you for listening.