Episode Notes

How does our brain navigate the complex world of decision-making?

This podcast episode explores the neuroscience behind optimal decision-making, highlighting how the brain processes information and the factors influencing choices. It delves into cognitive functions, such as attention, memory, and emotion, and how they play roles in decision-making.

Strategies for improving decision-making through awareness of these processes are also discussed. The episode emphasizes the importance of balancing intuition and analysis to enhance personal and professional decisions.

Key topics include:

Understanding the brain's role in processing choices and risks
Techniques for enhancing cognitive flexibility and clarity
The impact of emotions on decision outcomes
Practical tips for applying neuroscience principles to everyday decisions

0:00-02:06 Introduction To Neuroscience of Decision Making 02:06-06:31 Reactive Versus Responsive Decision-Making 06:31-13:29 The Role of the Rational Mind In Decision-Making 13:29-18:31 Creating Space for Freedom of Choice 18:31-21:16 Scarcity Mindset, Abundance Mindset, Fear and Love 21:16-30:06 Impact of Trauma on Decision-Making 30:06-36:10 Balancing Intuition and Analysis in Decision-Making 36:10-41:46 Gambling During Decisions 41:46-45:52 The Bridge Between Left Brain and Right Brain Thinking 45:52-53:15 Going Beyond Science 53:15-01:17:11 Mastery of the Self 01:17:11-01:20:15 Maintaining Balance in a Changing World

is a global, leadership-strategy consulting company. 3Peak creates the roadmap that aligns behaviours, relationships and Functional Human-Systems™ to achieve your business strategy.

Co-Founder holds a Ph.D. in Neuroscience, and did extensive research in Consciousness, Trauma and Physical, Emotional & Mental Health in various Institutes and Research Centers around Europe.

Co-Founder is one of the most sought after therapists in the world, mastering diverse modalities and opening wellness centers in Istanbul, Santiago, New York and Berlin. Her approaches bridges transpersonal psychology, meditation, bioenergetics, family- and business-constellations and more.

Co-Founder has extensive experience advising Fortune 50 and FTSE 100 C-Suite Executives in leadership, strategy, team dynamics, and organizational change. Before coaching, Mino worked in finance, management consulting, and mergers and acquisitions (M&A).

Transcript

Mino Vlachos: Hello and welcome to the 3peak master leadership experience. My name is Mino Vlachos, and I am joined by the doctor of neuroscience himself, Mazen Harb, along with our third partner, Krisana Locke. We are the co founders of 3peak coaching and solutions, where we support executives to master leadership. Our company provides coaching and team workshops. Today's topic is all about the neuroscience of optimizing decision making. And so I'll give a little bit of a preface to say I've known Mazen for several years now, and as a doctor of neuroscience, I have found that he is, for me personally, one of the most valuable resources. Anytime I have a crisis or a conundrum and I can't figure out what's going on, I go to Mazen. And Mazen has a beautiful way of bringing the artistry and the science of decision making so that it is very clear and understandable to anyone that he works with. And a lot of our clients seek him out because he's able to take them from a place of confusion into clarity. So this whole episode will really tap into some of Mazen's background, both as a consultant and as a neuroscientist, to understand how to optimize decision making in life. I will also add, and this is also for our american viewers, Mazen did a lot of his research at Max Planck Institute, which for our friends in America is compared to the MIT of Europe. And so a lot of his research will be really instrumental in our conversation today to understand how we bring these insights into the workplace. So, Mazen, I'm going to start really basic, because I want us to have a shared understanding and to develop this kind of vocabulary together. We talk a lot about decision making in life, in the workplace. Let's just start at the most fundamental level. In your opinion and expertise, what is a decision?

Dr. Mazen Harb: You're going to see me a lot speaking through this podcast about the two options. Everything in life is either I take left or right, front or back, future or past. So actually, decision has two ways. Either a reaction, a very animalistic body. It's like the reflexes that exist within the nervous, muscular and the nervous system. So neuromuscular system that also exists within us when we react to something, because any reaction to something, we already took that option. And then there is the more responsive decision making, where I decide not to react. So not to follow. It's weird to say it like this, but not to follow my survival instinct, which is not easy. And then to respond. Then something happens to me, I take it in and then based on that, I check, and then I make a decision. So if you see me, told you, I take it in, I check, and I make a decision. I'm not speaking philosophy here. So when it's a very fast reflex, this is the reflex system within our neuro like, within our nervous system and the muscular system. So neuromuscular system. So when I take it in, that mean I receive it through my senses. So that means my physical senses, like, receives it, I register it within my body and within my brain. And then I might. An emotion might arise, a sensation might arise. Then an emotion might arise. If it's very fast, a thought will not arise because it's a reflex. So it's beyond thought. So it's beyond mind. When I say an instinct is beyond mind, I'm not saying it's also beyond brain, because the nervous system is really the central nervous system, which is the brain, but then the peripheral one goes down along the spine, and then all the nervous, all the neurons go to every single tissue organ. So in a way, the brain is from, the nervous system is the brain and all the neurons in the body. But when I make a decision that it's conscious is really bringing that to the cognitive part of our brain, not just the survival or the emotional one. And then based on the factors on lived experience, I decided through the calculation, let me make this decision as probably the best for me, based on my experience and based on what I wish to have as an outcome. So when we say decision making again, it is really many things. All our body, brain, emotional system are in play when we make decisions, regardless if we are aware of it or not.

Mino Vlachos: So what I'm hearing is there's a stimulus, like something happens in the environment, and then we take some kind of action. And the more we increase the gap between the outside world and what we happen on the inside, the more we have a freedom of choice. So let me give a tangible example. Let's say I'm out in the world and someone makes me angry, and I go pure on instinct, and I attack them and I kill them, right? So that's like one thing that could happen is I'm angry, I kill you. But most, the vast, vast, vast majority of humans across time and space don't kill people when they're angry. So some gap emerges, and in that gap, they can choose to, okay, some people might go away and still try to kill the person, right? It's premeditated then, but some might go, calm down, take a walk, write a letter. Maybe they express it maybe they don't. So there's something that happens to create that space. Where our in our immediate instinct doesn't run the show. How do we create the space between the event, the stimulus and our response? What is the thing that keeps us from going and just killing someone when we're immediately angry?

Dr. Mazen Harb: My first immediate response would be our rational mind. If we don't have a rationale mind, then we think, we are beyond choice. Then we think, okay, actually, we have to execute on that anger and then kill that person. But actually, our rational mind helps us. And when I speak about rational mind, I'm speaking about the evolution of the human species. And I'm really gonna give a small anatomy here, just really briefly, not complicated, for everyone to understand. In the evolution of the human brain, which is very similar to the brain of mammals. So all mammals has the same structure, but the density or what's evolved is slightly different. I'll give an example. So in the humans, the prefrontal and the neocortex. Is way more evolved than in animals. But so at the beginning, at the core of the brain. The first brain that get developed in the womb. Is the reptilian brain. We call it reptilian because this is all our survival instinct. Without it, we do not survive. Every animal have that, and we have. So in the instinct, it's responsible of all our instincts. It's an immediate response. It responds to fear. And then so it has to do with, like, thirst. Even sexual like all the sexual energy, hunger, protection, all of those. Then around it, the next thing that it's developed. It's called the limbic brain, which is, in another word, the emotional brain, which is also another word. You hear it a lot in the addiction theory or the addiction talks, which we call where the reward system is. So this is where all our reward system. Whether it's negative or positive. So reward and punishment. So this is where our emotionality is. But emotionality does not mean rationality. So if I act from a place, from those two brain systems. So the reptilian brain and the limbic brain system. I will be reacting from an instinct point of view. To protect in order to survive. And to adapt to the environment and the emotional brain. So, based on the emotion, I will dictate my life. I will avoid everything. What's punishable, where it's aversive. And I will overconsume everything that's rewarding. I think it makes sense for you in a society where there's so the only difference is if we do not have the neocortex, which is with the humans, is the prefrontal cortex, where it is the seat of reason and logic. If this is not active, we will be acting from a place of instinct. So drptillion, brain and emotion, so emotional reaction as defense mechanism. So this is where the word defense mechanism happens. So all our defense mechanisms and protection happens from the emotional and the instinct. Funny, when I say instinct, it's really related to the body, emotionally related to the emotion, and then rational related to the mind. So the prefrontal cortex is really responsible for that, and it has an inhibitory action upon the limbic and the reptilian instinctual brain system. Negative inhibition in a sense of when information is received by the body brain system and goes immediately just to the reptilian brain or to the limbic brain system, a reaction will happen immediately, or a reaction can be to be frozen, right. So again, it's very connected to the nervous system and the muscular system. So a reaction of tremendous fear, I will be frozen. So those are important. But if it doesn't go to the prefrontal cortex, we all will be stuck in reaction. In a defense mechanism. The prefrontal cortex is here to evaluate the simulus, evaluate the context and the scenario, and then to inhibit the system, to say, actually, all is good. We don't have to freak out. A big sound of an explosion happened. If I'm in Germany, I will startle. See, that's my normal reaction coming from those brain systems. What's that? And then directly my rational brain, you say, you're in Lebanon. It's funny. I said, Lebanon. You are in Germany. And I did it just now. That's not, that's, see, that's a mistake, but not mistakes. You're in Germany. You're not in Lebanon. In LebaNon three years ago, where there was an explosion of the port that happened because of a human accident. So when I was in Lebanon and doing some work in Lebanon with leaders, what happens or workshops, what happened is any small explosion, any small high sound, it startles me and others in a way. It takes me way longer to start rationalized, say, probably it's nothing. So in Germany, I have to recount for, like, all is good, it's nothing. Here, it's a safe. And I do it constantly. Like, believe it or not, when the explosion happened, I was not even in Lebanon, but today I went to the gym, right? There was a small explosion outside. That explosion sound like boom. And then it takes me two, 3 seconds. That's a lot. I'm like, hmm. And then, so see, what did they do? Two, 3 seconds. So, darkly, my preferred to say, look, you're in Germany. The chance, the probability that this is an explosion or bomb or a blast or a political thing is very, very, very low. It does not mean a zero because you never know. So even. Even I rationale, but it can be something. I'm like, then I sit, then my brain says, it might be something, but the percentage is low. So I take a breath in and I say, okay, I don't have to defend. This is happening constantly to everything that happens around us. So first the reaction, and then I have a choice to bring it to my rational mind, reasonable mind, logical mind, that goes, let us say, like this. That goes mathematically. So the reptilian instinct doesn't know math in that sense, and the limbic doesn't know math in that sense of. So what I see about math and number is like, it's just very fast response where the rational, the prefrontal cortex goes with, all right, let us compare, let us value, let us see what is. There is space and time. But in order to do that, I need to take that, you know, drop backward and then give space to allow myself to have a small inner dialogue. Then I will see what's the behavior and what's the decision that I have to make when danger is not immediate.

Mino Vlachos: Yeah, I resonate with that. As someone that lives in the US, a lot of, like, pops for us, I think a lot of association around gunshots because we have a lot of shootings in the United States. So when I'm in Germany as well, it's the same experiment where, like, a glass bottle will get broken by a car. And I have to remind myself, I'm in Europe, I'm in Europe. I'm in Europe. So on that front. So we form these associations. We have these different parts of the brain. So some of it is, let's say, as you said, the more reptilian or the limbic. And then there's this quote, unquote, rational part, the seat of judgment. How do we go about empowering or kind of being in the seat of judgment, the rational part? And how do we. So how do we not be beholden to the more reactive or emotional parts.

Dr. Mazen Harb: Of the brain to know that you have the choice? So, first of all, is inner, like self knowledge and self awareness. Biology helps. Imagine if you really want to work on something, you really want to understand it. What we miss somehow, sometimes in the society is really to explain the basic of our body brain system. Once we understand the basic of our body brain system. We don't have to be afraid. How we function, most of our fears comes from us ignoring this system. But the moment we have more knowledge about ourselves, we will be less afraid and the choices will have higher possibilities. More choices. So first, knowing oneself, not in a complicated way, not in a philosophical way, know that, you know, physical body, nervous system. So sensations, there are sensations, something called sensations happen on the body to understand our connection with the outer world. And then we receive stimulus through our different senses, and then we have the emotion to respond on them. But also we have reason and logic to compare, analyze, understand if that all the data I have, am I safe or not safe? So to understand that we always have a choice and not that we feel disempowered. Oh, this is happening to me. I'm stuck. So most of the people I work with, they come, I don't know what to do, I'm stuck. But 100% of the time, whenever I worked with them, I just, I didn't give them the answer, but I just showed them that while working with them, asking them question, I realized always they have a choice. So my job as a leadership consultant is to work with executive, when I work with executive or leaders, is to show them that there's always a choice. And the choice, it's not that I know the choice, I don't know the choice, but within one's life context and circumstances, I just guide them beyond the point of like non understanding, understanding and then looking again, fresh eyes and see. And all the time there's the second choice that comes up that brings options. Funny, the choice. The second choice bring options. So, first knowledge, I would say.

Mino Vlachos: And so as I look around, I often perceive that people, organizations, governments, they make poor decisions, they make bad decisions. We can measure that in different ways. Like from, I'm just going to make some examples up, but maybe someone chooses to be in a romantic relationship that's abusive or is not supporting individual health or collective relational health. Maybe a leader ends up taking on a project and they end up dumping a bunch of chemicals in a river that poison a village, maybe. And I've lived through this. In the United States, you have a government that goes to war for no reason and ends up killing hundreds of thousands of people. And you look back as a society, as an organization, as an individual, and you can say, that wasn't a great decision that we made of. I actually am going to use a bit of an analogy. Right now, 2024, we see the rise of AI. And with AI, we can see that it makes what we call hallucinations. It makes some stuff up. It fills in the gaps. And often those hallucinations distort reality or distort how we can make the decision where it's giving us wrong information altogether. I'm wondering, and that's the analogy I'd like to use. When we make poor decisions, seems that there's actually a hallucination in place. Like we're perceiving reality in a way that distorts what's real and what's healthy and what's good for us, or how do we get what we want, and we end up making decisions that are subpar. And we can measure that in different ways. It could be in terms of health, it could be in terms of we get the outcome we're looking for. But I'm wondering, in your experience, what distorts our ability to make sound decisions?

Dr. Mazen Harb: I'm trying not to go philosophical, but I hear your question, because we discussed about it a bit this week, or like most of the. Sometimes we discuss about it, I will. We have to know that there will always be decisions that are considered wrong. But then if we stay with the past, so it will influence our decision. If I continue complaining about the government, about this, about that, it's not gonna help the river, and it's not gonna help the people to rise again from the dead. So it's really tough. The question is, every single moment we have a decision to make. Do I blame the government without doing anything? So what's the decision do I make if I myself work in the government? So whatever mistake happens, then we can make a decision to take responsibility. So that's the first thing. So I wouldn't say we make wrong decisions, but am I able to take responsibility? Based on iris, I have feeling a reaction. I'm always in a seat of making an optimal decision. So if someone comes to me, ah, this happened, and this, and I know what to do, I'm like, but then go back to optimizing your decision making. So it's always in the moment. So that's my answer. There's always a chance to correct until there isn't. That's ugly truth when, you know, when reach the end and expire of something. Now, to your question, you said, what helped us to make a sound decision, and what make a decision that's not sound. Again, it's. I don't know what's a sound decision, but to oneself, I cannot speak about the morality or politics I can speak about within a decision. That I consider right. And then I see the effect of it right to the community culture, to the company, to the government I work with. For you, probably not right? So that's what I call a sound. A sound for me, within the culture I am with the impact or the influence of fear is that thing that pushes me out of the track and gives me least possibilities and make me narrow minded. And I'm afraid then I will react from a place of lack of fear, of survival. Hence I will be using my survival brain, my ripening brain and the limbic brain without using my rational understanding and logic understanding and see the impact of it on a longer term. So it's a short term solution. So this is my answer in a more biological and then behavioral sense.

Mino Vlachos: So let's, I think you just gave us the kind of the formula, the equation. I want to kind of go into some of the components that you started to list out. So let's just start with how the kind of duality of scarcity, abundance, fear, love, impact decision making. So how do you see those two factors play out in decision making?

Dr. Mazen Harb: It's really, again, I will bring it back to the biology. We exist within a physical biological body, and that body dictates our action and behavior in every moment. But in order to dictate or to make these actions, we need to receive certain stimulus from within. When I say from within, I mean I can be thinking so much that I can bring form of emotions, anxiety, pressure, stress, so I can activate myself from within the, and then make a decision, or could be from outside. I receive something, I process it within my senses, then my emotion and then my rational mind, and then I make a decision. So in a way, this is always constant. So it's not a theory, it's an understanding of who we are and how we function within that body, consciousness within a body. So emotions are very crucial, indecision making, and they will dictate the outcome, the behavioral outcome, even if I, how I respond to you. So the reaction, again, from a place of fear, of lack, I will completely behave in a different way than a place where something happens. I take it, I process it, I feel it, then I have a chance to feel what I need to do. And then I will respond to the outside or to the inside, even in a way that is adequate to the situation, but without bringing fear, scarcity, terror within me. So the decision and the behavior will be completely different. So I'll give an example like the hard one you said you are on the street, somebody shouts at me right if I feel really in danger because for multiple reasons. Again, now it's for me. If somebody comes from very tough street gang thing, he won't probably have at the beginning that much choice of possibilities, since I don't come from a culture of gangs around me. But again, that doesn't matter because actually it can be my own biology. Somebody yells and shouts, I don't. My first option is not to go and attack, but also not fully to defend. See, I have an option. I created an option for myself because I was fortunate not to have those circumstances. I rarely, probably never been attacked in that sense. But if someone is attacked, they don't have much of choice. Up they go to freeze or running or attacking back. So I have a multiple of conscious decision based on I feel it, I hear it, and I really check the situation, am I really in danger? The choice I have and then what everybody have is like one moment, I'm not into danger. So if I, you know, that person is just lashing out or would be like, immediately something happens, I consider I'm in danger without thinking, without rationalizing. I have a button in my hand and I throw it. See, the two stories, the two action of mine will lead me to completely different outcome. And that is within my reach. And when most people say, but no, you know, because of trauma, I understand our body react to past experiences, heavy experiences, traumatic experiences, but it's still a decision. And then that need to be taken responsibility about. But it was beyond me again, and I understand, but you just did it. So it's a tough topic because again, the trauma can be so big that we react and we really cannot stop it. So in a way, I don't want to be like black and white here. That's why we need to understand our traumas. So if I know I'm traumatized about something and I cannot stop, and I really react and hit back or shoot, I'll try to avoid those places for that instance. See, that's decision for me not to go those places. So when you tell me, okay, I cannot make a choice, if I'm in the street and then I'm attacked, I'm like, I can make a choice not to go to those places. So all I'm trying to say is there always decision to be made to really trying to have a conscious, healthy life. And sometimes a reaction will take over and there's probably at this moment nothing to do.

Mino Vlachos: You've worked a lot in trauma, and you support a lot of individuals. And our third partner, Krissan, also supports a lot of people in the space of healing trauma. Trauma is something, as you said, influences our actions. And so it's not a black and white. There's this beautiful gray space, really, of how humans act, react. What are some of the things, if we do just dip in our toes into the space of trauma for a second, as a practitioner, as a healer, like, what are some of the things that humans can do when they have the time, space and resources to heal trauma and therefore alter the decision trees they have in front of them?

Dr. Mazen Harb: I'll go back to the formula. Understand oneself, to understand my fears, understand my limitations. The best way to understand one's trauma without being complete, making it so complicated and it's really reachable for everyone. Understand, once you react, bring awareness. You're like, ah, but I reacted. I'm like, doesn't matter, you've been reacting all your life on it. Once I behave in a certain way, in such a reaction defense mechanism, such fear, bring awareness. What was happening? What did I do? What did I feel? And then from that space, you're like, oh my goodness. I'm not able to see reality as it is, because whenever I hear that stimulus, that activation, I go back fully to defend myself. That's very understandable, but I would love to get out of it. The only way to get out of it is to allow myself to process that trauma. To process that trauma, I need to feel safe. And then once I feel safe, either with a therapist or in titration, bits by bits, I see my reactions. And then bits by bits, I try to feel the emotions that are rising and I allow myself to feel them bits by bits. So because the issue of trauma, we are overwhelmed with survival energy, survival emotion, and that survival energy is really stuck into the system and we create a conditioning to say, okay, that was too much. So always when this happened, I will react that way. So the only way to entangle it is to know the biology, the biology of when trauma happens. There's super amount of high emotion, high sensation that the brain could not process. And it got locked and I could not feel it, I could not process, process it. So whenever something related to that happened, I immediately react on it. So it's really to find time, space, safety within and with support of others, and bring awareness, and then, not logically here, and then slowly allow myself to feel certain fears, the anger, the jealousy, probably allow myself to feel that without feeling myself lesser or without feeling, trying to go through the feel of shame or inferiority, understand that really it happens to everyone. And I'm stuck in emotions that I consider negative, but they're not. They just there. They were there to protect me, but now, actually, it's. I'm being stuck by them. Those emotions need to be faced, felt, witnessed, processed. And then you have to trust that the body, when it feels safe, it knows what to do.

Mino Vlachos: And so this takes me into another piece of the formula. You outlined is the piece around emotions and intuition. And so intuition can be a very important part of decision making. And yet, I know a lot of people in the business world are kind of trained, conditioned to think that the only sound way of making decisions is analysis. It is through kind of a bit for me. I perceive it as a different way of thinking than a more intuitive way. So what is the role of intuition and analysis in decision making from your standpoint?

Dr. Mazen Harb: That's the only note I wrote. And I was like, I'm happy you came back to. I hope the people who are listening in the beginning reach that point to understand something very crucial and not to be convinced with their own way of thinking about overanalyzing. And that's what we missed before. Now we're so when we said, there's the instinct, there is the emotion, and there's the rational. But the beauty of our body, it only can exist in an optimal way. To exist in an optimal way, it needs to be in a homeostasis. Homeostasis is the balance within the cells, the organs, and the whole organism. And it really tried to always balance itself. So the body exists within a balance. If that balance is broken, like its balance, like tilted, the decision, or whatever we do will be always biased, either black or white. So if I use that amazing gift of the prefrontal cortex, really try to understand, analyze, if I rely on it more than the balance homeostasis of my being, I become in the head. I become too much relying on overanalyzing, that I'll be stuck in this comparison and everything. So the world becomes for me only through the lens of the mind, and I disconnect from my intuition. And here I use the word intuition. So intuition, it is the opposite, the exact opposite of reason and logic, but not the exact that they are against each other. They are together. If intuition and reason and logic work together, we will always be in this optimal understanding in the moment, to have the right decision to make. If decision happen without checking within oneself that it feels right. So if I'm disconnected fully from my body, the chance that I'm going gambling or being risky is so high, even you said. But in the last ten times it worked. Why now? It wouldn't. I'm like everything changing around. If you're not relying on a little bit of intuition. So intuition is this felt sense that we always feel. Hmm. I feel something feels right, or I meet someone, I don't feel something is off. I'm in a meeting and I make a big decision, everything in me feels off. I'm not happy, I'm not happy. So it's really start to read those subtle feelings that we have beyond the emotional reaction. See, there's difference. Now we added, it's not an emotional reaction, it's not the instinct reaction. We're talking about feeling. We're talking about like, it's a subtle feeling. I think everyone knows what I'm speaking about. It's like you arrive somewhere and you feel. So it's not a big reaction. It's just a knowingness that exists within our body. When this is balanced with reason and rationality, we are an optimal.

Mino Vlachos: You actually perfectly picked up on the archetype I was going to introduce, which is the gambler, and I'll share a personal story, and then I'll ask you a little bit more about that phenomenon. I started my career on Wall street, and I what I noticed, and this is during the financial crisis of 2008. So the crisis had just occurred. A lot of people were hurt. So in the United States, where the crisis originated, was they were giving mortgages, so loans for housing to people that couldn't really afford it. And then they gave them kind of very predatory interest rates and didn't inform them fully. So there's a lot of fraud in the system. And then at the time, what people were doing is they packaged all those, like bad mortgages together into, they were called like vehicles, right, or structures. And then they would chop them up and rearrange them and chop them up again. And people started to make side bets. So they started to say, you know, if it does this, I'll get this much, and if it goes there, I get that much. They started to gamble on these packages, and then people started to gamble on the gambling, and gambling on the gambling of the gambling. And this is what a lot of these very complicated financial packages were, essentially just a lot of gambling. So the big crash happens. Many people were homeless in the United States. It really crushed the economy. People lost their jobs. It was the worst recession since the Great Depression, and it also hit the global markets. And then I go into Wall street like a year later, and what do I notice is that people are still doing the exact same thing. They're still gambling with other people's money. And they were honestly just very bored. So they were very bored and kind of using the gambling to get a bit of a high. And what struck out to me as I look back in hindsight, is how much it was all in the head. And there was not a lot of emotion actually in this gambling. There was some kind of detachment. And even as you look at the stats, like when you look at even during the financial crisis, like, of course America originated the crisis, when you look at the exposure. So the gambling of the french banks and the german banks, they had almost 30 times the exposure that the american banks did. So they were gambling 30 times more than the Americans were. And yet again, there's a lot of narrative and story about kind of the responsible Europeans and the rational Europeans. But as a collective, we went into this very hardcore gambling and we lost bad. And a lot of people were hurt very physically, practically in terms of like homelessness, suicide, addiction that emerged from this crisis. So, Mazen, can you tell me a little bit about this kind of like, gambler archetype and what's going on from a decision making standpoint? When we look at the gambler, it's.

Dr. Mazen Harb: A topic that if I say it's dear to my heart, it's dear to my heart, probably that's the first topic that I clearly start researching when I was studying. And then when I went to research, it was really addiction. Really understand the root cause of addiction. Regardless what it is, it can be addiction to substance, to drugs, like social media, to people, to gambling, to everything, right? So even it's in ourselves, like every single being, have a certain slight addiction towards something. So again, so it's not like, oh, this person is pure. We all, and I hope everyone here understand that we all would have slight form of addiction, slightly until sometimes have a really heavy form of addiction. You have said something that in those folks that they were really using their mind, but that they're not using their emotions. I will now base on the terminology I bring, I just introduced. I will recorrect a little bit the terminology that and then explain it. Those folks, they were using high emotions to enjoy the reward. So they were using the limbic brain system to enjoy the highs, the pleasure point. And they were using their mind to support that high. So they were using their rational mind to support the limbic system to go such a reward. What they didn't use, what you say is balance is intuition. But I don't see why they would use intuition because. Because they decided, see? So it's not to be compared. Why didn't use what they decided? I want to enjoy the high. It gives me a buzz, it gives me meaning to live. I'm here beyond judgment, beyond morality. I'm here to explain what happens on the brain body system. So even if I speak about intuition, I just. No, they, the body brain system will always be used toward a targeted effort of me, how I will be, behave, act and feel. So even they, because this is how creator beings we are, they configured their own intuition to serve that purpose. I want to live in a high, so and then of trying to gain money. So they aligned themselves with their mind, with their rational mind, and with their intuition. How do I can make the most wins in the short period of time? So they didn't, they used everything. And that's the beauty of the body. The body doesn't judge, so, but they hacked their system to go a certain direction. But here it's emphasis on what, what they were interested in is to have high rewards higher and then to elevate the chance of the expectation of to receive those rewards. So again, to live on a limbic. So any form of gambling is to enjoy the limbic emotional reward system. So it's all of it is enjoy the high pleasures and to try to avoid punishment or aversion at all costs. That's it. That's what they did. And those people who were successful and those people who employed them, they saw in them their traits, that those people are capable to survive and thrive, to be all to have such a mindset, when I call it as gambling, but I will call it as such a risk mindset, they do enjoy of risk without themselves being so much in fear that they won't risk it. So they really go for it, because the pleasure is so high for them that they couldn't let go of the fear and then go beyond the fear. I mean, of course fear exists, but they go beyond the fear. So they made that decision to exist within their lives.

Mino Vlachos: And so let's take another different kind of archetype, which is that I've interacted with, and I'll tell you again the either what they told me or my perception, and then please correct me and explain the way you just did. It was great. So there's a different archetype that I've seen that operates within the kind of corporate environment. And I joke, we joke a bit, is like the AI mind, right? It's like the mind that's stuck in analysis and is they would describe themselves. I've met people who are like, I'm, I'm rational, I do not have emotions. So they say I don't have emotions, period. I'm just a rational brain that I, that someone stuck on top of a body. And yet almost always what I've seen in those individuals that are like quote unquote hyper rational is that at some point the body like starts to not be able to do the things that they command of it. So I knew an individual who was hyper rational. I don't feel emotions, very much ignored their body and then they ended up having stress induced seizures at work and collapsing. Right. I know other people that hyper rational, I don't feel emotions. And they're having like, you know, 910 coffees a day and their, you know, heart is jumping out of their chest and they have medical problems at some point. So what, what, tell me a little bit about this kind of like AI mind and what happens when we are stuck in the analysis and we deny the body and deny that we have emotions.

Dr. Mazen Harb: I really appreciate that use the word deny because it's impossible. Biologically, physiologically, humanly, it's impossible not to have emotions. So if we feel we don't have emotions, that mean we are rejecting them. That mean we worked so hard as a defense mechanism. Again, one without judging oneself. A lot happened in our life that we didn't know how to process emotions. So we reach a point of rejecting those emotions and we try to go beyond them to the point that we forgot that actually emotions are important and actually they're there for a reason. So in that sense, when you say a more analytical AI mind is where anna bring it all to at certain point of upbringing and developmental brain and certain cases of of course hurt trauma scenarios where emotions was felt a danger rather than a support because it was not the people. People were not supported how to deal with those emotions. So they didn't know how to regulate. And they considered the, that emotions are bad, wrong and negative. So they shoved it somewhere. So all the energy they do is to rationalize those emotions and not to allow themselves to feel it. What happens is. So what mean like what happens is we disconnect from part of our body which is constantly telling us what's happening, what need to be processed and how we're going. And then they rely over relying on the mind of the rational mind. So it tilted and there's a huge imbalance. The only, the thing is once it goes there, the only reference point they have is very mathematical. That's why we call it a I ish. So it's very mathematical, it's very data driven, it's very coded, but it ignores the subtle sense of life. Right? The subtleness. The. The communication. The subtle communication. Like, more than 70% of our communication happened not through those words. So if some people now are listening without watching, because it's a podcast, so only see hearing the audio and then not seeing the video, and then I really invite you probably another day, to really see the audio and see the video at the same time you might see something else because the really, the brain detect all the subtleness. So what happening is really over relying on data, and everything beyond data is, if it's not quantifiable, it's not true. It really will reach a point of, like, it's a short term solution because those individuals will always be stuck somewhere because they won't be able to adapt to most scenarios and context. So one would say, but, oh, I was able to adapt so far. And 50, yes, you will adapt to certain things, but then it will expire, because life is constantly changing. People around you, in your family are constantly changing. So if you do not detect those subtle changes, evolution. Kids become teenagers, teenagers become adults. A lot is happening, and it's only calculated through analysis. A lot will be missed and issues will happen. So it's not a long term benefit. It will be very short term. And one need to always, yeah, there will be struggle, but that's it. That will be struggle.

Mino Vlachos: Yeah. I'll share a few things at this point, which is data. The way I really see it is data is measuring something. So you can only measure something that already is or something that already was in the past. So it has to measure something that's already in existence, either in the past or in the present. So all it can do is replicate. So true innovation, true change, true adaptability is something that's creative. So it has to be created. It does not exist currently. So data cannot tell you what the future is. What we're doing instead, and we are a bit dishonest about it, is we create data based models. So forecasting models. And when we forecast, we typically have to bake in assumptions, and those assumptions, many times are just inaccurate. And there's many models that, when you look at it, fall on their face because they're inaccurate. So a common thing that companies do, and there's some value to it, but what they do is strategic planning. So they put a lot of time, energy and resources in making a plan for the future. There is some benefit to having a direction, right? So we're all unified, we're creating investments, so there's a unity and a direction that exists. But what we've seen, and we looked at it through research, is that companies that really index on strategic planning tend to perform worse, because the certainty that the rational mind starts to feel when you have a plan and you think it's all going to go to plan means that it starts to hallucinate or distort reality. You're not in touch with reality anymore, and the strategic plan leads you astray. So one hallucination is you get overconfident. You say, I've modeled everything. I think everything's going to happen perfectly. So I kind of lose focus and I start to take more risks. So ironically, the biggest planners start to become the biggest risk takers, whereas the ones that are in tune with the environment and changing as they go don't take as much unwanted risk. We're recently starting a project with our company, three peak, and I was talking to the CEO of a company, and he's a very analytical individual. And so he modeled all the financials of this company. And then when he purchased the company, and now he's the sole owner of the company, what happened? He got in and he made some assumptions in his models, and those assumptions turned out not to be true. And all of a sudden they don't have the money that he was expecting. So now they're in a crisis because he was so certain that his models were great and the models would always hold true. But the environment changed, so it fundamentally changed the nature of his business. And the analytical mind could not predict that. And now he doesn't know how to operate differently. So that's why we get called in, so we can do our work and introduce a different way of being. So the analytical mind. Mazen, one thing I've noticed is when you're kind of really stuck in analysis, it can start to generate also fear. Can you tell me a bit about the relationship between being stuck in any kind of behavioral pattern and thinking overthinking or what happens that creates fear in the system, which of course then will distort our decisions.

Dr. Mazen Harb: Once again, here you're speaking about like self induced fear. And even using that term, if you might be, what does it mean? It means the moment we are overthinking the future, we get trapped and then an emotion starting to rise, which is fear, for the simple reason, because the future doesn't exist. You exist in the now to start project the future. So you're using your mind, your rational mind. It only helps when you know where you're going, do the analysis and step back and do the work. Then there is no fear. If you do it once and then you always stuck. You are obliged to use what we would call here control. You start to control reality to fit that. So in your brain said, how can I control it to go this direction? How do I keep it? So I start living in the now and in the future simultaneously. But since it's impossible to live in the now in the future, so actually it's impossible to live in the future, I have to always think, keep the thinking mind happening to keep the future alive. So I control everything that's happening around. So whatever something happens, I'm ready for it. I have all the options to deal with any setback. This is so much energy for the body brain system, and that create an amazing amount of sometimes anxiety. Anxiety is nothing more than overthinking. Trying to control something is out of our reach. And then so anything we're stuck in thinking, it really leads overthinking. Sorry. It leads to fear just because of the way our body and brain, emotion and brain functions together.

Mino Vlachos: And so again, there's a. If you're an overthinker, this is my question, Mazen. How do you become aware of you're even overthinking or that you're feeling an emotion? Like, where do you start? Because a lot of folks, and I was one of them, so I'm not exempt from this. Where you think you're in control of yourself, you think you're doing the rational, but you're actually kind of hijacked by high emotion or overthinking, and you're not even aware that those things are happening. So what is a step towards awareness? How do we obtain awareness of these things?

Dr. Mazen Harb: Yesterday I received a message from a young adult that I mentor brother. A young brother of my very old friend. And so I mentor him. Sometimes I support him here and there. It gives me tremendous joy. And then he sent me a message. Hey, Mazan. I was trying to sit in stillness and meditation. I gave him some. Some sounds like different people need different ways to sit in stillness to allow themselves to calm down. He enjoys. I have some sound healing tracks I recorded for him. In it, there's a bit of silence, but really the resonance of the sound help his nervous system to calm down. And then he said, lately I've been sitting. And then it's really difficult for me either. I'm sleeping a bit like I'm very active. I'm bored with it. But before, it worked for me, so I didn't go into overthinking. I went to my own experience and the experience working with people since a very long time now. And I just told him that. I said, it's three things. Either you're not resting well, so you're not sleeping, or you're not eating healthy, or you're not organized. You didn't organize exercise enough. There's lots of energy. So those, I'll go back to each one of them. The last one is, you didn't exercise, so you didn't use the body. If you didn't use the body, you didn't let go of the extra amount of toxins, and you didn't eliminate. You didn't allow yourself and your skin to breathe and your metabolism to go fast to really support you cleanse if you ate, if you didn't eat well, that means really affecting your digestion. And then when we affect our digestion, it's really affect our moods, and our moods affect our mind and our way of thinking. So, see, the exercise will affect our way of thinking because we really have energy that it's not mobilized. Then this energy goes, and we start overthinking digestion as well. As I said, go to overthinking and not sleeping while not resting. That means the organs and are really on exhaustion. So on exhaustion. And that also will bring, ah, so it brings this constant activity within the brain, default brain. So default brain is excited, not in a positive sense, in a neutral sense, but like there's excitement of the neurons. Again, not positive, just excitement of the neurons within the brain and within our nervous system. So we're not able to sit because there's exhaustion. That's what I told him. I said, either this, this, and this, and I was waiting for his answer. And he said, oh, thank you. Very clear. I know what I'm doing. And then he's taking care. So, again, so this is the body is not a mystery. The mystery is how it happens. But we don't have to know how it happens. In the deep detail, which molecule did what I'm like. But the body, it's not a mystery to understand that it happens. The small detail, the intricate, let the body do it. But, and this is why we really try to demystify the science of our physical existence, because the same one is influencing how we think and how we act in the world and what we create.

Mino Vlachos: And so I want to bring the next kind of way the brain operates, which is the left right of kind of divide and my layperson understanding. I'm not saying I'm right, so I want you, again, to correct me, is that we've potentially misunderstood in the common culture the way the left brain, right brain operate. So it's not just, like, analytical creativity or whatever, but actually part of the brain is about big picture thinking. So zooming out to really be able to take in the whole and to see the big picture, and then there's more of a focused part of the brain that really able to go more narrow. And one of my personal anecdotes where I felt this really acutely, is I was taking a class on animal tracking. So you go into the forest and you track animals. And part of it is you're, of course, like, looking down once you have a trail that you're following. So I'm looking at the tracks of, I think it was like a fox or something. But then I'm also trying to be aware of everything around me. So I'm really stretching my. Listening to listen to the birds, to listen to the forest. I'm sensing with my skin. I'm trying to use the periphery of my eyes to see if there's something out there. I'm kind of looking up to take that big picture view. And then there's also then going back, which is a very narrow kind of, like, really track the footsteps. And what I realized is that one, this is a very difficult thing, to be able to go between these types of kind of thinking processes, the very big and the outward and then the very narrow. And it really challenged me. Like, it was, like, one of the hardest things I've ever done cognitively. And what research has shown is that the bridge between, like, the physical part of our brain that connects the two hemispheres is shrinking. It's actually, this is when people say, like, our brain has been shrinking relative to our ancestors. So we're kind of losing the capacity to bridge those two types of thinking. And I have to say I found it quite difficult in that moment. And when we work with executives, this is often a skill that many leaders need to actually master, which is to be visionary or strategic and to be able to see the whole of the business, but then at times, to be able to dive deep and to see the kind of details of what's happening with the people under them. So people call it different things, like strategic agility, the kind of zooming in, zooming out. A nice analogy is, like, when to be on the balcony and when to go join the dance. But this is one of the skill sets that is actually quite difficult in decision making. And just as humans. And so, again, I think we get a little bit stuck in one way of thinking. Some people become very tunnel visioned and focused and analytical. Some people become very expansionary in their thinking, more of the dreamer. I would almost characterize them if they get stuck in it. And the bridge or the gap between the dreamers and the doers, it seems to be almost widening in our biology and in our kind of society. So that's just what I've interpreted. Mazen, how do you relate to that topic? What's your kind of perspective on those kinds of modes of thinking in the brain?

Dr. Mazen Harb: I feel it's this time in the podcast where we hit this point where I'm think, I'm telling you, mino, we're going there now. I'm really not gonna answer it rationally at the beginning. And please guide me back or whatever you feel for me. The first answer would be the bridge between the right and the left brain hemisphere, between very visionary and the skies. And then the earth is literally, literally this body. What's the bridge between the sky and the earth? The body, right. Where does the body lives in the moment? Does the body lives before impossible? Does the body lives after impossible? Does the body knows how to be before and after it is physically impossible? I hear you. I hear the research, and I think you know me very well from the research community. And the way how I do research, I like to challenge, I like to enjoy that, the gift that is given to scientists to question the status quo, even of science itself, because that's what science is. The bridge is the body. If the body is the bridge, and the body lives in the moment, the answer is in the moment. You said that the two way of thinking are separating and then we're shrinking. I hear it always beautiful. The only difference between you and your ancestor and the people who were in the cave, they never lost track of the body. That was always the bridge. So they never lived in the past or in the future. They lived in the now while they were executing. That's it. So they were in tune to the earth, and they were in tune to the sky, they were in tune to their body and emotions, and they were in tune to their thinking process, regardless where they are, because always they exist in the now. They didn't have the technology to project them in other people's lives and all those social media. So here, where we need really to do differentiation and understanding, the science that we do is based on the context and on the restraint and where we are as a society. But science needs to come back always to the neutrality of who we really are. So when you say, but I want to do science based, I see what's happening, so I'll explain it. No, we're explaining something based on the traits where society is going. But we lost the most basic, the simplicity. Look at any animal and tell me are they using their rational mind or are they using their, when they're using their rational understanding or when they're using their emotion, when they're using their instinct, when are they using their intuition? Oh, you have this whatever lots of experiment haven't and done monkeys or horses, you know, and then you see them. They can choose why an animal choose this or that. The beauty of it ignorance. The beauty of ignorance. And the opposite of science, which is beingness, is those beings are one within themselves and within their natural environment. They never dissociated them. So what we did in our society, that we brought science as a way to understand the being, but we start using science, a technology, not as a tool but as a truth, but we use the technology itself as who we are. Science is not who we are. Science is explaining processes to understand parts of ourselves. But who we are is beyond that because any animal or kid is capable of being, responding, reacting and be in this world. So when you said how can we align those two way of thinking? My answer immediate is through being what is being? And this is it. Actually I explained it. It's really come back to the natural way of and then the opposite. Why we're not able to be because we got stuck in identities, in controlling. I'm going to only use my rational, I'm going to only use my emotion. But actually both are still the same thing. They're choosing a part of themselves but not fully who they are. And both are living not in the now, they're living in vision and dream and desires, but they're not able to know what they're happening here to get out of where they are and or living and just constantly analyzing, so constantly controlling life and situation so they're not able to be here now the only time that exists.

Mino Vlachos: And so again, I gave the caveat which I think you kind of just explained, but science can only report on what it tests. I right, so we can only take a look at what we measure through the scientific method, which in my opinion is very slow and limited and it's very selective. So what I'm going to say is just one version of a truth, because I don't think science has tested everything. It's not even close. But to your .1 of the things that has been shown to really benefit the rational brain, the bridge. Neuroplasticity, is meditation. I use the word meditation because that's just the thing that has been tested by science. There are other things that are either similar or adjacent or under the umbrella. So what you're saying, being, being present, beingness, we haven't tested those or use those words because science is incapable. But I think that meditation is a pretty good proxy for what you're describing, and that has been shown to benefit in everything we're doing. And so my last question to you for today is, you know, we talked about a lot of the mechanics of the brain, how we function, different ways, we distort decision making. But I also know a lot of people are like, look, I only kind of care about this stuff when I need it. So what if I'm having a crisis and a big challenge, and that's the situation at hand. So all the cool stuff you just talked about, well, it's fun to learn, but now I am in a situation where I don't know how to solve my own problem, and someone comes to you and says, I'm in a crisis, I don't know how to solve my problem. What would you do with that individual to support them, to find some clarity, to understand their choices?

Dr. Mazen Harb: The first thing, actually, based on the conversation how it's going, is like, come back here now. Right, let us come. Come here now. What do you feel? What is happening? And the person said, what they're feeling. I said, no, no, no. Not what you're thinking, not what you're afraid of. What do you fear right now? Okay, and then what's on your mind? Then I'll understand what's on their mind, and then I'd start giving them the choices. I say, look, if you do not come back here now and then see that you have choice, you will go into a survival mindset, so survival way, so out of fear. And then you'll be instinct, like through instincts, and then that will help you on short term. Maybe, maybe. But you already took a choice to go with fear. If you stop for a moment, take a breath in, just come back to the moment that's now, and see that you have an option. And the moment we are grounded a little bit, then our mind will open up to different possibilities. If I see myself, I'm in a crisis. And to understand that basic logic, if I react out of fear, I will be stuck in a crisis. If I take a moment and stop and then have an eagle eye overview just for a moment, I might find a way out. As long as I'm reacting out of fear, I should not be expecting other than stay in the crisis or have the repercussion of the crisis. While in the crisis. Even while in the crisis, if I make decision out of acceptance, out of okay, this is how it is. I'm not a victim of it. I just need to find a way out. I take it in, I feel the emotion, that crisis arose, I feel it. I feel myself. And that feeling that means I connected to myself. The moment I connected to myself, fear start to come down. And the moment fear start to come down, the part of the brain start to go from instinct to the limbic brain to the rational brain. And then suddenly I said, oh wow, I might have other choices. So in crisis, we always think about in one exit out beyond crisis is really to stop while having the crisis, feeling our emotion, feeling our feet on the ground, come back to the moment. Because in the moment I'm not in crisis. Because in that 1 minute I'm not. Because I'm speaking, he's speaking, that person speaking with me, and then trying to see either through fear, which is survival and instinct, either through acceptance and love and understanding. And this is a way of abundance and long term way out of our choices. So those are the constant two choices we have.

Mino Vlachos: And I use this opportunity because it feels very organic for me right now is we wrote extensively about this in our book that we published with three peak coaching and solutions. We have a whole section on the book about managing crisis and what mazen describes. You know, again, I think some people are so locked into like, no, it's got to be this way. This is the only choice. But we, we use case studies, famous case studies from history, famous crises. And what happened is that for people to solve those crisis in the middle of it happening, they took the pause. We even wrote about like the Apollo 13 disaster and how the ship malfunctioned. And in the middle of that crisis, what they did is they took a pause. The pause is necessary. And anytime we have a challenge with three peak coaching and solutions, when I'm sitting there, I no longer even have the instinct to just do, do, do, which when I was younger, I had, okay, I'll just double down and work harder. I have to pause because if I don't get the team together, if I don't align us, if I don't figure out our choices, then I'm, I'm gambling the company through the rationalization of doing, doing, doing. So the book is called crisis and leadership. Check it out. We have a lot of good stuff in there about crisis and managing crisis and leadership, well being, adapting to change. So it just feels like a natural point to actually bring up our book. So today we've talked about a lot of things with decision making, even starting with what is a decision, the difference between reacting and responding. We went into some of the hallucinations that we can kind of experience, the imbalances in our kind of brain, body, spirit system, and how that creates warping around how we're making choices, particularly around kind of scarcity, abundance. So the kind of fear driven decision making. We talked about high emotions, we talked about intuition and analysis, and how if any of this kind of goes in an imbalance, then we're kind of favoring one over the other system. And then that's where some of the decisions can start to skew in ways that we might not intend. And we followed it up with really kind of how to move out of crisis. So, Mahzin, I'm going to ask you, what are your kind of final thoughts that you'd like to share with us when it comes to the neuroscience of optimizing decision making?

Dr. Mazen Harb: I will probably finish with our three core components of the company we created and then why we created and the value to really support companies, leaders. But humans, at the end of the day, to really know how to deal with crisis, how to deal with challenging times, how to deal within themselves, and to really understand there is, first of all, so mastery is needed, mastery of the self. And so understanding oneself, understanding the dynamic I have within myself, understanding the dynamic I have within the others with the other, and understanding my dynamic I have within a society, organization, company. So all the way there's decision making. So I'm a part of a unit. So, so myself, the unit, the team, and then what I represent. All of it is like one body, so diversion, like the diversity, and then unity. Decision making is everything. It's from waking up in the morning, everything we do during the day. Everything is based on two components. Either I react to life based on instinctive behavior, reaction, conditioned behavior, or I respond to life reacting to life out of fear. There is no choice. I just go back with my program of a defense mechanism. Responding to life is to go into one moment of stillness, take a breath in, and knowing, oh, my goodness, I have a choice beyond fear, where takes in what I feel and what I think, and then put them together and then acting upon it. If we live in a society, family, in a company, while understanding the difference of decision making that has on every single thing we do, everything endeavor, every single project, every everything, every single relationship, we can live an empowered life where we know that we always have choices and possibilities and we stop being victim of life and understand that life come through us, happening through us and not to us. And that's not philosophy. I really urge everyone to go practice it, practice it, practice it, practice it. Understand when you react and understand that you have a choice of responding. And then every time you say, if I react, what if sometimes I start to react less and respond more out of acceptance and see how your life will change around you, how your private life will change, how your professional life will change around of you. And this is if applied, it will more and more and more you will realize when people are. Magic can happen. Magic can happen only within the body and how we react or respond. And when you start responding out of place, of abundance, of acceptance, of love beyond fear, while accepting emotions and intuition and the reason and the logic mind, this is the place. This is the ultimate beingness that we were expecting to, that we have a choice to become. So there is a choice of becoming. And it's really accessible to everyone, regardless where they are in society or regardless where they are in their lives. That's the free choice, the free will given to every human being on this planet unconditionally. Either you take it or you don't. But then one need to take the consequence consequences.

Mino Vlachos: So what I'll share as my kind of final thoughts is I'm going to go on a little bit of. A little bit of on a journey here. But a few weeks ago I was rewatching a movie called the Tree of Life. And in the Tree of Life, it's a story of a. It's a pretty big story, but a part of the story is about a father raising his sons in the 1950s. And it's a very classic depiction of that type of fatherhood, which is very emotionless, but very emotional at the same time, but repressed emotions, very strict, harsh, even violent at times. And I've always, throughout my life, kind of condemned or judged that type of parenthood, that kind of like very emotionally but repressed father. That's very violent. And I was watching it and I had this moment where I said, you know what? During that time, a lot of society didn't change a lot. So the social structures kind of were the same. And actually, some of the lessons that the dad was teaching were probably how a boy and a man could survive and succeed in that social structure at that time. So the conditioning that he was putting on his kids at that time was actually going to help them later in life, because that's how men would interact with each other at that time. And so for the first time, I said, actually he's doing a very good job preparing his sons for a very harsh, violent, emotionally repressed world that he grew up in from his father as well. So as long as the society doesn't change or evolve, actually it's quite good parenting, you could say in some ways right now, of course, there's other things you could say. It's very difficult on the child and this, this and that. But if that's the social structure, that's the system, then in some ways I can't judge it anymore because I say he prepared his sons pretty damn well for that society. What's happened in the last 50 plus years is our social structures have changed so much, our technology has changed so much, that often what we are learning and training kids in, by the time they actually become adults, they no longer exists. So even in my very limited life on this planet of 30 some years, what I experienced growing up in the 1990s versus 2024, our systems are so different that the lessons that my parents tried to impart in me 35 years ago do not hold anymore. And so when we talk about, like, operating from a reaction, the reactions they tried to train me in so I could be instinctive in society. It was a society that no longer exists. And so the only course of action to really adapt and thrive in society today is to let go of the associations and trainings and conditionings of the past, because they no longer fit the society that I fit in today. My parents never trained me to be an entrepreneur. They never trained me to have a phone in my hand 24/7 they never trained me for a lot of things that exist today because they couldn't have predicted it. And so my message is even just going on this journey of self awareness, of trauma healing, of looking at our associations, moving beyond reaction. It's very selfish and necessary to do this because it moves us to be responsive to the world today. So that's my invitation on going on this journey, even if you wanted to be very selfish and utilitarian, is I no longer think we can live the way we used to because the world is changing so quickly. And what I appreciate mazen a lot because I always learned something from you. Is this, I never understood this before, but now it really clicked. Is this homeostasis between different parts of the brain? And so if we over index on the stress or the emotion or the bodily needs or the rational, it tips us into something that might not support us. Versus like you said, taking the bird's eye view of all these processes, physiological, biological, emotional, cognitive, and being able to sort it out at that high level view, the bird's eye view, and then seeing what's really needed in the moment. Because I kind of came out of corporate, I grew up in the corporate environment. I know just how many people are indexing on one or two, but not keeping the system in homeostasis, not keeping it in balance. So that's why I keep kind of hammering this message home. If you're not, if you just say, I'm a rational being, then I know you've over indexed on one and you're ignoring the others. You need to take a look at what's happening with your physical body. You need to take a look at what's happening with your emotional body. I will only trust the leader that can report out on all three, the body, the emotions and the mind. Because if you can't report out on all three, then I know you've skipped a step and you're not in homeostasis, and I severely doubt you're making actually good decisions. It is only at that point, and this is what we train leaders in. So I'm not coming in condemning anyone, but if you need support in this, hire us. Because we're good at supporting people to learn the physical, the emotional and the mental. And only when one can report on all three, then I have full faith and trust that they'll be able to make a very good decision. And so that's how I'm now starting to kind of thank you for helping me understand the homeostasis part, the balance between everything. And this is just my friendly reminder that the world is changing. So you can either kind of get on the ride or get dragged behind it. And getting dragged behind it is pretty painful and miserable, and there's a lot of suffering. And that's a choice. So if you're listening to this now, you have a choice in front of you. You could be dragged, or you could hop on the wagon and get carried along. Hopping on the wagon is to bring awareness. And some of the tools we've talked about, whether it's meditation, therapy, sound healing, just being present, just being in beingness, these are some of the things that can really support in that. So before I fully close it, any reaction or response? Mazen, you have a choice for either reaction or response to anything I shared before we closed.

Dr. Mazen Harb: I fully received your last message. I really.

Mino Vlachos: Yeah.

Dr. Mazen Harb: It was good to receive it. Take it in. And I enjoy it. So thank you for this beautiful meeting today. And then to discuss these very important understandings about the self. And how the self is part of the outer society as well.

Mino Vlachos: Beautiful. And so with that, thank you for listening. And we'll see you in another episode soon. Bye.