E28 Neurodivergence & Gender-Expansiveness In The Workplace ft. Chris D. Hooten
January 2025
75 minutes
E28 Neurodivergence & Gender-Expansiveness In The Workplace ft. Chris D. Hooten
January 2025
75 minutes
Stream on:
Each human being is unique. That uniqueness adds to our collective strength. When we celebrate and include everyone's differences, we all benefit.
Unfortunately, many of our social and societal systems have been built to exclude and minimize the many of our populace. Particularly in the work place, acts ranging from microaggressions to overt aggression create a distinct feeling of "other-ness". Research has shown time and time again, that these in-group / out-group dynamics hurt productivity, morale and financial performance. And of course, they take a significant toll on the health, agency and well-being of the excluded person.
In this episode, we feature Chris D. Hooten, where we explore neurodivergence and gender-expansiveness. These two identities are often misunderstood and can bear the brunt of in-group / out-group discrimination.
Chris D. Hooten, M.A. (they/them) is an award-winning facilitator, speaker, writer, and accessibility coach helping workplaces elevate experiences for Neurodivergent and Gender-expansive leaders.
Recognized as a LinkedIn Top Facilitation Voice and Neuro-Mindfulness coach, Chris is a trusted advisor to government agencies, universities, non-profits, and businesses committed to meeting the needs of diverse stakeholders.
To learn more about their work, visit
0:00-1:13 Introduction to Chris D. Hooten 1:13-8:24 Understanding Neurodivergence & Gender Expansiveness 8:24-17:18 Societal Stigmas & Personal Experiences 17:18-21:13 Challenges Faced By Neurodivergent Individuals In The Workplace 21:13-35:57 Barriers For Gender Expansive Individuals In Organizations 35:57-46:45 The Necessity of Inclusion and Accessibility 46:45-57:12 Bringing Intention To Interventions 57:12-1:03:30 Mindfulness & Meditation For Inclusive Leadership 1:03:30-1:15:23 Finding Joy Amongst Challenges
3Peak Coaching & Solutions is a leadership consultancy dedicated to Elevating Executive Mastery.
We specialize in transforming businesses through leadership and team development during transitions and times of crisis.
We focus on the 3 critical areas where chaos and conflict are most likely to appear:
By addressing these flashpoints, we assist you in navigating change to build unity, create certainty, and establish clear direction.
Our approach empowers leaders to master complex challenges and transform their companies to thrive now and in the future.
Mino Vlachos: Hello and welcome to the 3Peak Master Leadership Experience. My name is Mino Vlahos and I'm the co founder of 3Peak Coaching and Solutions where we support executives to master leadership. Our company provides coaching and team workshops to support leadership transitions. We're very excited. Today we have an amazing guest, Chris D. Hooten. Their pronouns are they them. Chris is an award winning facilitator, speaker, writer and accessibility coach. Helping workplaces elevate experiences for neurodivergent and gender expansive leaders. Recognized as a LinkedIn top facilitation, voice and neuromindfulness Coach, Chris is a trusted advisor to government agencies, universities, nonprofits and businesses committed to meeting the needs of diverse stakeholders. For 15 years they've empowered leading organizations like the American Bar Association, Tax Section, Washington State DEI Empowerment Conference, Seattle Information Technology and Washburn University to elevate workplace experiences. Their work has been Featured in the DEI After 5 podcast, the Equity Gap Podcast, the Unyielding Podcast and other outlets. To learn more about their work, visit chrishootenconsulting.com I'm very excited and passionate about our topic today and if I just break it down, we are all different and the differences in humans is what makes life rich and amazing and beautiful. But unfortunately, sometimes these differences we can either be cruel or misunderstand or not work with people because we don't understand these differences. So today we're going to focus on two of the kind of categories of differences, their richness, their beauty, and some of the ways that we create systems that unfortunately lead to poor outcomes and marginalization and difficulties, unnecessary difficulties for these two groups of individuals we're going to talk about today. And that is folks that identify as neurodivergent and as gender expansive. And so Chris is an absolute expert. A lot of experience working in this and also personal experience living with some of these identities. And so we're going to be talking about them. Chris, thank you so much for joining us today.
Chris D. Hooten: Thank you for having me. Mino. Great to be here.
Mino Vlachos: So for those who might be listening, and we're going to start kind of more with the fundamentals. What does being neurodivergent mean to you? That can range from a definition, it can range to experiences. For someone who might not be familiar with the term neurodivergent, what should they know?
Chris D. Hooten: Yeah, that's, that's a great question. Set aside before we get started, I'm going to just give a quick visual description. For those who benefit from a visual description. I am a brown skin, dark skinned, brown skin person. I have a shaved head. I have some makeup on, some yellow goldish eyeshadow and some red lipstick. My fingernails are painted bronze and blue, and I'm wearing a green shirt. And there is a bookcase and a couple of degrees to my left, that's my right in the background. The question of what is neurodivergence or what is gender responsive identity? You could get 100 people in a room. So 100 people, those definitions and those questions, and you get 100 different responses. And I think that for me, from my vantage point, I think that neurodivergence is an umbrella term that encapsulates the experiences of people who have been told or have felt as though that their minds work differently or that they have barriers to communication, to processing of information, to even being socialized and connecting with people because they've been termed to be outside of the norm. However, the norm has been defined by that specific context, be it a workplace or a family unit or. Or a country or a continent.
Mino Vlachos: Right?
Chris D. Hooten: You can go to Africa, you can go to South America, you can go to East Asia, South Pacific, and have very different understandings of what the expectations are for mental processing and taking information. And that also shapes people's definitions of what neurodivergence is. I can see how that might be a sort of a roundabout way that might not be satisfying for people. And a big part of my equity practice as somebody who is informed by and is a student of indigenous African and Oceanic ways of knowing, we are taught to be comfortable with the complexities of life. We are taught not to see things as contradictions, but as complexities that shape and form and connect with one another. Part of my practice and the work that I do that I find so exciting and uplifting is that I get to encourage people to not see things as problems to be solved, for things to be limited or to be decreased, but as wonderful experiences that shape us in our lives. And then the definition of being gender expansive, this is a term that is becoming more popular in the west, especially in North America and the United States of America, as an umbrella term. So if you go to certain websites and you'll see transgender and gender expansive, and this is a movement to make way for and to give space to and to respect people who do not identify as the gender that they were assigned at birth and may or may not be committed to transitioning to another gender. So with the. With the term transgender, the implication is, at least in common purlances, you're going from one gender that you were Socialized in. I don't say sex because it's a very specific thing. And gender is different from sex, one gender to another gender. Let's say you're going from one airport to the next, you're getting on a flight. Being gender expensive is being a world traveler. You don't have one destination that you're trying to get to. And so for me, generationalism is a beautiful umbrella term that honors the reality of people who do not identify with or feel comfortable with or are not affirmed by the gender that they were fertilized initially as. And it's for me, much more positive and affirming than say, like a non binary. I have no qualms against the term non binary. For me, though, as somebody who, as I get older, defining myself as to what I'm not just doesn't feel as affirming and as helpful in my journey. So for me, gender was not something that I'm in opposition to. And I am excited about it. I get to play with it. I get to live my. My truth. And that for me is a much more affirming and positive orientation. And so those are. Those are just the definitions that I come up with. It might be slightly different.
Mino Vlachos: Love it. It's. I love the affirmation aspect. It really touches my heart and. And I wish this really could be a whole podcast of just celebration and just affirmation. And yet there's also going to be moments where I think we dovetail into what might be more challenging aspects of living with these identities. And I'm going to start by using myself as an example, and we're going to segue a bit into like, I guess, society and stigma.
Chris D. Hooten: So.
Mino Vlachos: So I don't think I've ever publicly spoken or declared or, you know, taken a stance that I do identify as someone that is neurodivergent myself. I've shared this in an individual basis with people, but I've never said it out loud. And now we're gonna put it on a podcast, and tomorrow we're gonna put it on YouTube and LinkedIn, and it's out there now, so I'm happy to share that. So thank you, Chris, for creating that space for me to share that. And yet I know one of the reasons is I struggle with the term. I know that my brain works in unique ways and that I've struggled with different parts of how I think in different ways and behave in different ways, but somehow using a word like neurodivergent makes me feel different or other and in other ways it helps me organize myself and say, yeah, actually, that does make sense. That is why maybe certain patterns I have are like this. So now I have this mixed relationship where it's giving me kind of some security of like, oh, I am not how I say it. Like, there's nothing wrong with me, right? That's like a big thing. Growing up, I was like, there's something wrong with me. So now I can say, maybe there's not something wrong with me. And yet I'm still afraid to tell people in this society that I. I have a different kind of brain configuration. So can you help me just make sense a little bit of like, this dichotomy where it's like, really helpful in one way. And then also it's scary for me, at least it's scary to. To kind of claim this piece of myself.
Chris D. Hooten: I want to pause and just sit with the gravity, what you just showed. You know, I think that millions of people, many, maybe a million, many millions of people have similar feelings, right? This is not something that is spoken about. It's not something that is normalized. It's not something that is welcomed. I think that part of that is there are so many consequences. We care so much about how people perceive us and also how we perceive ourselves. And that's not our fault. It's in large part because we live, especially in the west, in a culture that says who you are is indicative of, or should at least shape what you do and what you receive in return. We are in a labeling society. Are you middle class? Are you upper middle class? Are you low class? Are you black? Are you white? Are you queer? Are you straight? Are you trans? Are you cisgender? Are you this? Are you that? And then we decide who we connect with, who we socialize with. What we can expect out of each other's interactions is informed by those labels. And, you know, we don't have time to get into all of it. There's a function that happens where our brain creates a shortcut. It's called a heuristic shortcut. I'll say that again. A heuristic shortcut. Our mind, our brain. I'm just going to give a visual of a 3D model. It's double the science, but it's a 3D model of the human brain that I love. I call it Sophia, which is the Greek term for knowledge. And the brain evolved, I'm not going to say designed. It evolved to make shortcuts of things, right? Because the three functions that we have are save energy, avoid pooling, and Seek pleasure. So if we had to think about all the 60,000 thoughts that some researchers estimate 65, we have to organize those. We wouldn't get anything done. We would make decisions. We have to think about who's at the right, who's going to. Who's in the in group, who's not in the N group, because, you know, 10,000, 15,000, 50,000 years ago, who was in it, who was not, was a deciding factor in who was going to get fed, who was going to be able to rest and win that day. So when we're talking about labels, it makes a lot of sense that people have a very visceral reaction. We've done studies that show that the vagus nerve activates people. You know, our blood constricts, people's breathing shallows, people get stressed out, their brain fogs, because in something. And some people label is a threat. What's fascinating is that in the last 40 or 50 years in the west in particular, labels used to be things that people in power use to define and to dictate people's lives. It was in an institution, it was in a president or a governor or whoever. They came to the people and said, you're this, you're that, you're Protestant, you're this, you're that. Right? And they decided that that shaped people's experiences. Now we're, see, we're in a place in a culture where people are expected to make the choices, to define for themselves. And the onus on how you label and how that shapes your experience is on the individual. And people are made to feel like they have to make a choice. Like, we'll give an example, if you're a neurodivergent person in your workplace and you may benefit from receiving an accommodation, if you do not say, I would like this accommodation, that would benefit me in doing my work more effectively. If you do not do it to the desire workplace, if you later say, oh, I would have benefited from this accommodation, they're going to say, why don't you tell me? Or it was on you to disclose to me, but that erases the nuance. If I do tell you, there might be stigma involved and we don't talk about this with accommodations. The implicit understanding is, or at least the sort of the agreement is, if you, with this accommodation, do not excel or improve in your work more than before you had that accommodation, then that accommodation wasn't effective. And then you might be subject to a review or an evaluation on negative feedback because from the worker, from the manager's perspective. What do you mean? We gave you the accommodation that was meant to improve your ability to work. But if you're a neurodivergent and a person of color and maybe you're transgender, you're only getting. You're only getting accommodation for one thing in the workplace, that doesn't alter in all the other intersecting identities that she would have to face. Right. So if you don't get an improvement, you're really putting. Some people view it as you're putting yourself at risk. I think that's a feeling of the ADA and our discourse around accommodations. So when people talk about the challenges of coming forward, that's a very real concern. I want to honor that. And also the last thing I mentioned is we're at. We be clear about this. We're not at a place where people of the global majority feel emboldened and comfortable claiming neurodivergence because there are different consequences for people who are a person of color, for women, for queer people, for transgender people, for people who are working class people whose English. English is a second language. They've already sort of got a social sort of like, marker on them. And so when they add neurodivergence to that, it's not an additive in the way that European Americans and Europeans have been sort of taught to think of it. Europeans think that their workplace belonging is already secure. Right. They have less of a risk of getting a pink slip. So when they say, hey, I need this to benefit or I need noise canceling headphones, or I need to be placed in this office where there's less lighting, so that negatively impacts my. Because they identify with. Or the worker identifies with them more times than not. The worker, the white person, European American to a European person, that over the mold, it's not as much of a concern. Oh, yeah, relate to this person. I'm going to give them their communication. Right. But if you have it, if you have a precarious sense of belonging in that workplace already, and then you say, hey, I'd like to get this accommodation, it's a different situation altogether. So I know that it's a long answer, and I think that it helps to sort of give gravity to the experiences of people who are neurodivergent in the workplace. And there are very real concerns. I mean, only 37% of neurodivergent employees believe that their organization provides meaningful support for neurodivergent individuals. That's from the 2024 report.
Mino Vlachos: Wow.
Chris D. Hooten: That's from the 2024 Neuro Inclusion at Work report. Also, 54% of managers expressed a lack of confidence in supporting neurodivergent individuals. Right. So this, this fear that neurodivergent workers have isn't coming from any, from nowhere, you know, and then the last thing. And I think this is kind of, this is really, really, I think Illuminating. Just 52% of neurodivergent employees feel that the organization is supportive of neurodiversity in general. Right. So that, and some people that I talk to about these statistics are like, oh, that's kind of positive. Because the other side of that is, you know, if it's 52% feel confident, that means 48%. It's like, no. Actually, when you break it down, a lot of those people are unsure. So yeah, 52% feel that they don't feel the organization is supportive of neurodiversity. And then other people are unsure. Some people feel like yes. And then when you break it down, most people who feel yes are more likely to be in higher positions in the workplace. There is a huge gap when it comes to managers or people who are being asked to be leaders at work being neurodivergent. So neurodivergent people are oftentimes placed in specialty roles, but oftentimes placed in roles that are frontline, front facing, and they may be blocked from moving up because of these stigmas that people have around things like traits like autism, where people feel that people who are autistic cannot communicate well or have trouble making decisions. When in reality autistic people can make decisions. They, and I'll speak for myself, we benefit from having information that enables us to make the right decision. So because we are committed to making the decision with the right information, that may slow things down a little bit or it may add a little bit more complexity because we're trying to find the right sources or because a lot of autistic people have a strong affinity towards justice. We want to make sure that everybody's voices are heard. And that also takes time. And that might be seen as a negative thing when in the way our businesses are set up in the US Especially, they just care. Did you make the decision quickly and how much money did it make? They're not looking at these social externalities of people feeling like the way you made that decision was undemocratic, it was rushed, it made our life more difficult as workers. And the down the side effects of that, where you have less engagement, fewer people who feel connected to the workplace, more absenteeism, and more conflict. Studies have shown that people who are neurodivergent, when placed in positions of leadership, do exceptionally well, but they're not getting that action in the workplace, especially because disproportionately the management is composed of people who are neurotypical or who believe in neurotypical.
Mino Vlachos: And so these are some of the barriers that we just went through for neurodivergent folks. I'm also curious, and this can range from the unconscious to the unfortunately intentional kind of disenfranchisement of gender expansive people in the workplace. I'm wondering what you've observed in terms of what are some of those barriers in the workplace? Or. Yeah, just like the way I always think about it is like there's. There's a, like a headwind. Right. Or like a current that's always against you. Right. So you can swim as hard as you want, but there's always this current. And you might still be inching forward, but. But there's always this force, the system that you're always grappling with. What have you observed when it comes to gender expansiveness and those forces that might be more kind of headwinds in organizations?
Chris D. Hooten: Yeah, this is, this is a little bit. It's not, it's not more tricky because neurodiversity is incredibly complex and, and nuanced. Gender is right now at the intersection of, unfortunately, the political right now in the U.S. right. So I'll be frank here and state that one political party in the US Is committed to positioning people who are transgender and gender expensive as the worst thing since locusts. We're under everybody's best scaring people. We're making people feel uncomfortable because how dare we desire to live our lives openly and authentically? How dare we insist that we too belong in the public sphere and we too have a claim to what Americans feel are our rights. And so we're being positioned by one political party as a scapegoat for the political parties. The ability to meet people's intrinsic needs for security. And then the other political party has made the calculation largely that this is a non issue or that it doesn't matter whether there are other things that are more important. And so that political party erases any mention of transgender generation people. And this is particularly problematic in the sense that this leads to a hyper visibility and at the same time under protection for people who are transgender and gender expansive. And so there have been a number of adverse social psychological impacts, repercussions, ripple effects from this positioning. And even though people sort of frame things as either you Know that's professional or this is political or this is personal. All of those things intersect with one another and shape the spheres. The workplace does not exist in a vacuum. It exists within the context of the legal system and the social dynamics and the history of America. I'll also just give a few statistics that I find that I have prepared for people who are gender experienced in. And these are what I call experiential gaps. Right. So before I preface that, we're talking about equity. What I find helpful to people is articulating this is equity is a sort of a formula of what your expectations are and to the extent that your expectations are reflected in your external experiences. We all have expectations. So not to go back to Sophia, the brain model, Sophia is the brain is an expectation needing to process information in physical. And the brain is a processing unit. Right. The brain suspects that with the developing baby, it'll be important to process information, to store information. That's why we have an amygdala, so we know what to be afraid of. We have a hippo hippocampus because it allows us to help store our memories. It's an expectation. So much of life is expectation based. Just to give another example of another organ system, our lungs are an expectation that there's going to be oxygen, whether oxygen will be important for us. So seeing from that perspective of what expectations are, people have certain expectations when it comes to existing in social life. There have been studies that show that the vagus nerve, which is the nerve that's in charge of the parasympathetic nervous system, that calms us, that regulates our mood and allows us to relax. Parasympathetic nervous system reacts negatively to, let's say you and I walking down the street or two different perspectives on the same sidewalk. I say hello to you and you don't respond. Just in that instance. My nervous system, my parasympathetic nervous system is looking alone because in that moment, my sense of belonging is in question. I'm thinking, did I do something wrong? Is there something on my face? Am I in danger? We feel like our sense of place in society is at risk just in that one small interaction. It's less than five seconds, right? We've seen it. People's faces contort their mother. And it's not just mental or emotional. Not that that's not important. It is. We also see it reflected our physical body. And so people's heart muscles constrict. They take in less oxygen. Their ability to think in their prefrontal cortex, cognitively goes down by as much as 75% when we feel that we are in a threatened position just in one instance. And it may take as much as three times as long to get back to our homeostasis, to our balance. Right? And so when you think about that, trans and gender expansive people are people who are not yet socially accepted in public. We're in a position where we're. Everything that we do is political. Every choice that we make is a risk when we're going out in public. I am a facilitator for the Ingersoll Gender center, so I facilitate peer support groups. And people come every week. It's the longest running peer support group for transient people. They like to say in the cosmos, but I'll say in the US because, you know, who knows, people from the nation, they lay their, their burdens down and talk about their experiences. And I've noticed and just in the last few weeks, a precipitous and stock, you know, increase in people saying that they feel unsafe. And I'll just sort of give my perspective when they're saying that, they're saying, I feel unpredictable. I don't know what to predict. The ground is shifting beneath me. I don't know how to make. I don't know how to make the right choice to get my needs met. My need for dignity, my need for safety and predictability, my need for belonging, my need for some degree of choice in my life. We all have. Those are expectations that we all have. And trans and gender transit people are in a position where we're not well positioned to have our needs met consistently. And so, as I said earlier, equity is the extent to which your internal expectations are reflected in your external experiences. So from that vantage point, it is, I would make. It is clear that trans and gender experienced people are in a constant state of inequity. There was a lack of reciprocity that is taking place when we go to work. We respect people's pronouns, we honor people's boundaries. We do not ask invasive questions. We do not comment on people's gender race question. We do not state that, you know, you go, sis, you look amazing. You look snatched, right with this makeup, right? And I'll say from my personal experience, this happens to me every single time that I go out of my home. Every time that I go out of my home, dress as I feel affirming makes sense to me. That makes my spirit light up and I feel excited. People feel the need to comment on my accessory or tell me how much they love my style and you know, and while that's. It's nice the first couple of times, but then you notice that people don't do that for other people around them who are similarly putting an effort into their expression and how they look. So it's a reality of that. People feel uncomfortable. They can't quite code you. We don't know where to put you. I quite literally see it with people when I go to place. I go to get picking my medicine and people. I don't know what to. Where do I sort you? It's a triggering of the cognitive dissonance. People want to do two things. They want to make you feel the person that they're looking at that they're a good person. They don't want to see that. They don't want me to see that. I can tell that they're having trouble forming or understanding or processing all that I am because I have a wonderful bond with contradictions. I do not come easily package. And they feel uncomfortable by that rather than admitted to do it. But they also don't want to seem like a bigot or somebody who is not accepting. Right. And so you see kind of like a. Okay, like they almost like they almost like wander with a robot circuiting and I just want to give my. Ma'am, this isn't one of these. I just want to give my. I'm not looking to get your information. It's lovely that you offered it, but I would argue that it's more so out of your discomfort because you're offering this and it's not thoughtful. You're being reactive and not responsive. I'll just sort of give some statistics that I think are helpful. 72% of workers have not received any training or education on transgender awareness and inclusion in the workplace in the past year. So this is important to sort of situate where this is at. This is in the US this is in the US and 30,000 employees were reviewed for this analysis. This is from the 2024 Trans Workers Rights Survey. Right. Some other statistics. 68% of trans workers and 17% of cisgender. Cisgender, for those who may not be aware, is a term that means non friends. So if you are socialized as a woman or girl at birth and you be a woman, you identify with the gender that was placed onto you by your caregivers and society around you. So that would make you cisgender. In this framework, 17% of transgender workers report wanting more policies in place for trans workers. So that's roughly 1 in 5. And it's a majority 7 for 70% of trans workers and 1 in 5, 20% of system workers want more protections and support in place. And the Last thing is 54% of trans workers do not feel comfortable discussing transgender related issues or concerns with their supervisor, Manager or their HR department. Repeat that again, 54% do not feel comfortable. So when we're talking about psychological safety, there have been many studies that show the importance of psychological safety. People want workers. I'm not going to get into the contentions of this, but people want workers, work workers. Managers are trying to think about how they can make workplaces more inclusive to make the. Because a lot of people who don't want to go back to work are people who were facing microaggressions at work, they were racial and gendered or ability microaggressions every single day. And they feel like they can do their work just as well at home. Workplaces may or may not be open to that. But I would frame it as if regardless of what you decide to do, it's important for you to make these changes new. The last thing I'll say is many different people that I speak to make the argument, oh Chris, well, you know, trans people are maybe 1 to 3%, maybe 1 to 5%, you know, of the population, right. So what are we, what are we, what are we doing? Are we having a big return on investment? And I'm feeling much more. And so we're talking about creating gender safe workplaces. This is not just for trans people. Not that we shouldn't make it about trans people because our experiences are very important. This is about people who, if you are neurodivergent, oftentimes the neurodivergent people have no issue, have no desire or simply unable to meet the expectations on their gender identity. Maybe if they're stimming, which is self stimulating behavior, maybe they're tapping their fingers, maybe they may be a little more expressive, maybe they might get excited. And if you're socializing male in the west, that excitableness that maybe you're a little bit more fluid, maybe you're a little bit more chatty, that is framed as feminine and as non masculine. And that places somebody in the position of, you know, grappling with that relations of gender identity is unsafe in the workplace. And so when I, when I talk about these things, I'm helping workplaces to create gender affirming, neuro inclusive and stress resilient environment. Because to tackle these issues head on will be stressful in the sense that it will be challenging. Some people think of it as a threat. My work is rooted in neuromindfulness in which I help people transition from a stress response to these challenges that are already happening. They're already on your doorstep, even if you don't think that they are to. How can we view this as a challenge that we get to take action on right now that will position us if we do the right actions and invest in the right supports to leverage all of the talents of our neurodivergent and gender diverse workplace? Gen Z and Gen Alpha are already the most racially diverse, gender diverse and neurodiverse generation. Many millennials are also discovering our neurodiversity and our gender diversity. We have friends, we have colleagues who see our experiences, they see us struggling. They want to help us. They want to be good people. It's not just helping neurodivergent or gender responsive people. It's investing in a healthy, affirming, productive, safe community.
Mino Vlachos: And I'll add a couple thoughts and then ask another question on this topic. But what we've seen, especially in the United States, where I've studied more of the history, every time we've expanded accessibility or rights for one group, everyone tends to benefit. So even when the ADA was passed and for instance, we made more accessible sidewalks, right, so folks that utilize wheelchairs can use the sidewalks. Well, then mothers with strollers tended to find them really convenient as well. So when we expanded the Voting Rights act in the 1960s and for the first time really franchise like millions and millions of Americans who had the right to vote, to finally be able to actually exercise that. But it was only in that and I say this because I'm a Greek background, so I'm Eastern European, many of the folks that are Eastern European don't realize that it wasn't until the Voting Rights act that was championed by the black community that Eastern Europeans also got the vote. So that's conveniently, I think, forgotten because then we're absorbed into whiteness. We're a part of the. Yep. So we're absorbed now we're kind of absorbed into whiteness. So we kind of cast our lot with that. But it was only until all these folks who are black followers for us to be a part of the country. And I think that's typically lost that when we expand accessibility and rights, it's really supporting everyone. But one thing I wanted to ask you, Chris, and this is an observation I have, so I could be totally wrong and you can tell me I'm absolutely incorrect in this, but I get the sense sometimes that with a lot of these topics, especially if it's like on a more political level, but can also happen in organizations, like, if I take kind of trans experience or gender expanse, it feels like it's like CIS people yelling at CIS people and I don't hear any trans or gender expansive voices ever. Or it's white people yelling at white people, and I never hear black voices or men against men, and I never hear women. And I'm trying to understand, like, is that a real dynamic? And, and that invisible? And like you said, it's like I, I imagine it's like hyper focus, but you're objectified, you're always an object being talked about versus someone that can be visible and speak about the actual experience. Is this observation at all accurate or am I off base? What have you seen and felt as a person?
Chris D. Hooten: One you're not obvious. I'll just say that clearly as soon as I can. This is a phenomenon that was studied well in the 60s, right in the civil rights movement. His name is escape me right now. And he talked about what he called interest convergence theory. And the basis or one of the core ideas paraphrasing it is we will offer people rights on the margins only to the extent as the people who are not marginalized, that it is in our best interest to do so. So when, when you're saying it's a bunch of people who are cisgender talking about, talking around gender identity, talking around these pictures of trans people, that's a very real, it's a very real thing. Especially because, especially in the political sphere, which is we, we rel. We don't really have much public engagement in this country. Yeah, I know people like to think about it, but we did go through Covid was a traumatic, horrifying experience where over a million people died in America. There are still people who live with long Covid. We're still experiencing that. It has not gone away. And we never had a moment to just take a breath and acknowledge the full weight and the negative experience and the psychological impact, the collective trauma of quickly needing to go back, go into your home and wearing face masks, and things are changing quickly. Nobody is quite sure what's happening. And people, are we supposed to wash our food down or not? And, and, and, and then we're just supposed to go back to work. Like there's no, there's no acknowledgment of the psychological, spiritual, mental toll that that took. And what I'm saying about that is when people who are in the positions of power, when they're deciding amongst themselves about the experiences of people who are less powerful, they are deciding if it's in their interest to give them rights. So when you see people who are heterosexual talking about gay, quote unquote, gay men, race equality until this in the 2010s, we see this happening in public. The Supreme Court. Nobody on the Supreme Court that we know of is non heterosexual, but that is a body of non heterosexual people who were quite literally debating, deciding if it was in the government's interest, which the government is assumed to be heterosexual in this, in this category, to offer rights, to include these people in a limited capacity as having rights. We're seeing the same thing. It's not just trans or neurodivergent, it's also immigrants. Will we decide as people who are citizens, will we decide to offer people a pathway to citizenship in this country? And now we're hearing frameworks. Oh, it has to be an earned pathway. It doesn't have to be earned. You don't have to do anything. You could just give it. These people have been contributing for decades. The taxes, their labor, their energy, their investment. They're getting much more than they get back they receive. So what is the back in earn? It's a framework of they have to do something, give a compelling interest, serve our country, serve in the military for them to earn the right to be that which you have just by the virtue that you were born on this plot of land. So it's all, it's all discussions and debates about expectations. That's why it's contentious. People who are such, if strong people get right, get rights, their expectations will be impacted in some way their experience of equity. I think that the last thing I'll mention is that we cannot separate this from the context that's happening in the US currently. I am not unaware of the fact that for the first time in well over 100 years, the collective west has a competitor in China, in the BRICS countries. This is impacting European, Americans and Europeans on a psychological, social level. They were not prepared for their lives, their economic livelihoods. What they expected to receive is being challenged not only by the virtue of their work with these countries, with China, with Brazil, with India, other countries that we are currently in conflict with, but everybody else in the Global south now, for the first time in over 100 years, has a viable alternative for their money and their resources and their building of roads. Right? There's another example that's viable. It's murky, it's precarious. It's still forming, but just the idea that there is an alternative worldview or framework is deeply unsettling to many, many people in the West. And so when we're talking about transgender and other issues, these, these conditions, these issues are being placed in hypervisible positions precisely because people in the west are not prepared or comfortable grappling with the larger existential concerns and the countenances that we are facing. It's much simpler and much easier, much more comfortable. Take a small issue where people who are trans or maybe 1 to 3 to 5% of the population, depending on the generation, to take that and say, what are we going to do? It's much simpler to think about debating whether or not we're going to get rid of TikTok or this or that. And let's think about. We don't really have a plan for if and when our hold on the world is ended. So I know that might be frightening to some people. Part of my neurodivergence is somebody who's autistic and has ADHD and other traits. I see things clearly and I have no qualms about stating them clearly. To me, it is crystal clear what is happening in the larger sphere. Until we're comfortable really grappling with and facing these challenges, working to find ourselves, keep circling the ground, these relatively small social issues. I want us to get better.
Mino Vlachos: Yeah, it's remarkable how we'll focus on what I continuously categorize more as like the cruelty, the petty cruelty, when there's so many bigger societal challenges, when we really can utilize the gifts of everyone and we need everyone in our society. Like I think the, the most blatant for me is always, it's very suicidal if you were to dismiss half of your population. So when we dismiss, dismiss women, I don't know how to categorize it other than like a suicidal wish of why would we not embrace whatever, like 50 again, probably roughly 51 maybe. Of all the strengths and gifts and talent and motivation that we need, we need a society, we need as a people. Even if you go very utilitarian and organizations, it's the same thing. Like you have a mission as an organization. Maybe it's make money, maybe it's something else and you hire people and why would you not want to get the best out of every employee? And to do that, you cannot be selfish and super short sighted and bring your politics in. Like just create the conditions for each person to do their best work. And this is all we're talking about today. And so I want to transition to that concept of can I, can I.
Chris D. Hooten: Can I, Yeah, please, something quickly.
Mino Vlachos: Please, please, please.
Chris D. Hooten: Just a little bit of reframing and a little bit of pushback.
Mino Vlachos: Yeah, yeah.
Chris D. Hooten: Around language. The idea of, you know, and I'll say the trigger word suicidal. And when we use that word, we've been moving more towards a death by suicide than somebody committed death. It's often framed as like, this doesn't make sense. People who died by suicide, it is not reaches as shown a logical decision. It is an emotional reaction to pain they've been experiencing. And so I think that to use it in like a, like when we're saying, oh, why would a company not do this? Well, we, I think what we, what's kosher to. What we mean to say is this is not rational in our worldview. Given what we know about this person's rational rationalization and what their goal is, this does not make sense. This is self deprecating. This is self defeating. Right. But people who died like suicide, they didn't defeat themselves. They were not supported and placed in a position where they lived in a society where people didn't help them. And they felt that they had to go that route. I think that's just a small reframe. I know that you didn't say anything negative, but it's a normal thing that we talk about in our culture. But I think that it helps with the goal of being more beautiful.
Mino Vlachos: Thank you, Chris. And it's these moments that are really needed so that we can continue to evolve. And thank you for supporting me in a learning moment because I know that you're a guest on this podcast. So for you to have the ability to speak up is very important so that we can always evolve. So thank you for role modeling. A very courageous moment. So I appreciate it. And as we think about organizations, we all know that there's many companies that will put on the PR version of change, right? The marketing version, green washing, whitewash, like every washing you can imagine, because the marketing of these movements makes some people feel comfortable and we did something, but nothing actually changes. So what, what does meaningful, like actually meaningful inclusion look like when it comes to some of the groups we've talked about thus far? Some of the individuals we talked about thus far are like, what is a meaningful change when it comes to neurodivergent employees? What is meaningful change when it comes to gender expansive employees and not just the, you know, the PR version of it?
Chris D. Hooten: Yeah, yeah. That's a tricky dilemma to grapple with. And in the sense of like the word meaningful in that sentence, I think is doing a lot of work. I think that I am. I'm not sure if I'm going to answer the question. I'm going to respond and I hope that it gets somewhere around to the response that we're hoping to get. Feels right in this moment. When I think of the challenges that we are facing in the workplace, in the US Workplaces, with the statistics that I showed earlier in detail earlier, those are dilemmas. Those are not problems, quite clearly. They are not bugs. They are features of our system that we have chosen to utilize, that we've chosen to maintain. And I don't think I'm being controversial in saying that for more and more people. We wake up every day and we can clearly see that this is not worth it. For more and more of us, the system that we've chosen is a little bit like a game of musical chairs, except now the song is accelerating and there's fewer and fewer people who find themselves comfortably seated and more people are falling down. And you know, it's a little, not to be funny, but there's almost like social media talks about like, I didn't expect the face eating lions, you know, that I voted for to eat off my face. People are sort of convinced to over identify with the system. They are convinced, patient believe in this is my duty. And they say, okay, well you haven't stopped to think about if the choices that you're actually making are meaningful. You know, are you actually doing what you think you're doing? Right? And whose best interest is it for me to feel patriotic after I get my I voted sticker and I place it in position it on Instagram, I'm that person, right? Like, okay, I did it, I voted. That's fabulous. We love that for you. And like you're saying, what has that done to the systemic structures that shape your everyday experiences? Has that, did that choice result in somebody being housed? Did that choice result in the lowering of people's cost of medicine? Did that choice result in improvements in public health, reductions in climate change, a shift in criminal, criminal justice? Did it improve? And we do that in the workplace. We have at least, we at least feign democracy in the political, but we do not have democracy at work. And that is my larger point and I know how to be on brand here. So I don't want to get too far off topic, but neurodivergent and gender intrinsic people feel as though their choices that they've been presented are not helpful in meeting their Basic needs at work. Back to the idea of stability, safety, dignity, some degree of choice or power to influence their experiences and belonging. I'll just give it the name of it. I think it's helpful when we're talking about belonging. Belonging for me is more. So I talk about rack R A C, K. That's relationships, it's acceptance, it's connections and it's kindness. Who are the people that I feel easily able to relate to? Who are the people that I accept and that accept me? Who are the people that I find easy to connect with and that also in turn find it easy to connect with me? With people that it's easy for me to be. To offer them, to offer them kindness, the benefit of the doubt when I hear a stereotype about them or rumor, to pause and question the validity of that. Those are the people that you feel a sense of belonging to and that you, I hope, they feel, is belonging with you. Right. Neurodivergent people have fewer neurodiversity people have weaker relationships, have fewer people who accept them. They feel less connected and people offer them less kindness. Being for the dad right at work. So when we're talking about what's going to result in substantive changes for those people, those are all spiritual. And by spiritual, I mean social, feeling based, mindset based challenges. We talked about the space. Okay. You mentioned a ramp earlier and that's. We love that. That's great. It's very important. It helps. It does materially improve people's experiences of navigating a workplace. We're seeing things like, oh, everybody gets a noise canceling headphones or lower the lighting and recess lighting. And we're going to. That's great. That's very important for neurodivergent people, especially for combination. And they also will talk about the specific things that they're going to do. We're going to offer this room or we're going to allow this one person to have this one accommodation. And I found it at least more helpful in my work with the Seattle IT department, with the Washington Post, Legislature, with the Space Needle and other clients that I've worked with. Let's take a step back and really focus on the students. Why do we want to do this change? Why is it important for us to be committed to this? How do we know that we are committed to this? Because when we work on the spirit of both management and the employees and other stakeholders like donors or membership, if you're, you know, an art studio or something like that, we focus on. And that takes more Time, but I find it much more helpful now. I'll just give an example. We all have grandmothers who may or may not say some things out of pocket. And I love my grandmother. When my grandmother says something that's a little bit like I love my grandmother and I know even if she says something that's specifically wrong and that's context, I will give her the benefit of the doubt because I'm committed in spirit to being a healthy community. All of that's the energy. And in contrast, when somebody says the right thing and somebody says the right topic or they know the right buzzword, but you feel that this person, you don't know what it is, but you feel that this person is duplicitous, you feel that this person is not committed, you feel that this person is not doing it for the right reasons. We don't trust them. They committed to doing the right specific thing, but you don't feel that their spirit is in it. That is, I think, really, really important. It's. We're going to focus on, okay, what are all the words that we can say? We know that not to say, right, that's hr. That's the compliance based, you know, okay, the law says this. So we're not talking about legality, we're talking about morality. We're talking about people actually feeling motivated and to nurture it. And they feel poured into, they feel empowered, they gladly contribute something that is purposeful to them. Right. That is a very different orientation. So we're talking about what to do. I think that that's where we need to start, is really looking at the spirit of what we're doing and not necessarily just the specifics or even just the space. Those are all important to strategy.
Mino Vlachos: I, I absolutely love it very much resonates with my own desire, mission, passion, path. And for me, one of the big supports in my life, especially when I was struggling a lot with mental health, was opening up to meditation and opening up more to the spirit and spirituality. And these have become some of the most just really, I don't know what else to say. Like life changing, supportive things in my life. And I know that you're also a neuromindfulness coach. Chris, can you tell us a little bit about how you see the role of neuromindfulness in some of the topics we're discussing right now?
Chris D. Hooten: Mindfulness is spirit. Mindfulness is rooted into all of this. The West I like to talk about, we like to create labels and words and terminology and we're stripping the spirit of these things. Oh, we're meditating, sitting down and sitting in a place of required. That's lovely. You're not getting, you're not doing it for the right reasons. You are lacking and you are missing the reason that you do this. Right. You know, the, the Buddhists and the people in the Hindus valley have been perfecting this for five to, in many instances, even more thousands of years. So when you meditate, when you do yoga or you do other things that you think are meaningfulness. Right. We're trying to get the, and there are, there are actual, you know, back to Sophia. Right. There are actual benefits to Sophia more when we take 20 minutes to meditate or we do some yoga or stretching or we journal. Right. When we're talking about, when I talk about neuromindfulness, it is taking neuroscience that we have, have the benefit of in the last 20, 30, 40 years and fusing it, embedding it into these thousands of years practices from Asiatic, oceanic, indigenous. And we like to talk about, we like to ignore this, but African peoples who've also contributed to these spirit based practices. And I like to talk about the full holistic perspective. It's not just the mind that benefits. My work is also rooted in somatics, which is an understanding that the body and the mind are not separate. There is no mind over matter as above, so below. Right. So when you're talking about the mental state, the emotional and spiritual state of a person, you are talking about the physical state, how people feel. This goes back to what I said earlier about the vagus nerve and the constriction of the heart muscles. And, and I can get into all these different statistics about how meditation and breathing exercises improves our experiences. You know, I don't think we have time for all that. But to say that meditation is vital, being mindful is vital to the challenges that we face in and not of the workplace. This goes back to the point I made earlier. There is no separation between the workplace and the third place, wherever that is. That's where we're seeing fewer and fewer levels. But the home, we bring these, there is no turning on. I'm so glad I'm not in this commuting. So if we're at commuting, are we at work? Are we in the workplace? Are we in the space? It's kind of in the middle. There's no understanding of the complexity and the nuance and the interconnectedness of it all. But in my practice, I work a lot with people. Not just narrative version of fans of people, but all leaders and how to take a step back. Practice mindfulness in a way that allows them to increase their awareness, to accept things that are happening. That challenge didn't really happen. This workplace is really going through this situation. Things aren't what we want them to be, and that's okay. And acceptance is an approval. I think people get those confused. Right. You know, example I'll give is. And this is, this is outlined in a book that I read recently. But when you run into, let's say you're running into a shallow lake. When you run into a lake, but the mind, because we want to know if we're safe, we'll look down into the water that's murky because you ran into it. You sort of dressed up all the dirt and rocks. Now it's murky. Your mind is primed because, oh, my gosh, what's in this water? Is it piranhas? Is it. Is it a snake? What's that thing that I just felt on my foot? And people will often react instead of respond. Mindfulness and meditation is all about. I notice that I'm feeling stressed out. I notice that there's some certain themes around things. Elderfly. Just sit here and calmly, just wait for the water to settle in about five to 10 minutes, you notice that the water clears up and that thing that you thought was a snake is a little bitty minnow nibbling at your, at your toe, or it's a. Or it's a stick or it's a rock. And you go calmer. And from that place of calm, you're better able to exercise your agency to influence the outcome. That's what I talk a lot about, is how can we, okay, we're feeling this way. We notice this settle our body. We notice what's happening. We accept how we're feeling. We're not trying to intellectualize it. We're not trying to solve a problem. Let's just accept what's happening, stay present. And then once you see and you have a better perspective, you're not able to take some actions that ideally will shift your. Your experiences.
Mino Vlachos: Yes. And I'll just. I think you already mentioned earlier, so I'm going to just replace it and amplify it. Here is when. Because we're social beings, belonging is a core need for humans. And if we do not feel that sense of belonging, we are exposed to chronic stress. And chronic stress wears down the body and creates ailments. And it can be very physically damaging. And so when we talk about creating these systems that are, you know, we've inherited. And now we must have. Must make a choice, do we maintain them or change them? But just know that for huge percentages of humans, it wasn't built for them. And there's a chronic structure stress that is just eating, eating, eating at these. At these bodies. And again, I'm just going back to myself. I have found that meditation, the spiritual journey, has been one of the ways that I've found just a small kind of level of peace and stepping out of that chronic stress game that I think we're very. In America, in the United States, we really are into this chronic stress game, and it's severely damaging to us. The other thing, and this is where I'll kind of transition, so I hope we end on a positive note here, is just to tap our inner resources, right? Like, because these are such vital topics and we have to surface them. But they come with pain. They come with the felt experience. Experience of everything that's going on systemically, individually, but just tapping in for a moment to joy. Just so the body has a moment where it's not under threat. It's just a little bit safer than it was a moment ago. So, Chris, I just want to end this podcast with asking for just a moment of joy that has come up for you. And it could be a long time ago. It could be recently, just any moment where you felt like, yeah, yeah, how.
Chris D. Hooten: Much time do we have? I think, you know, and I'd be mindful of my response here. A lot of people who are neurodivergent like myself, I'm not gonna speak with a broad rush. We have been shown to feel a certain reverence and awe in nature, in the natural world. There have been studies recently that show that just looking at a lake, just a wide body of water, calms. I'm like a broken record. Calms the body, regulates the mood, turns on the parasympathetic nervous system. There's a reason why all those movies where somebody is grieving and they're on a journey, they go to a beach and look out or, you know, there's a reason why bodies have walked has this effect on us of being forgiven, of laying down burdens and you know, and just sort of being ourselves or being feeling accepted. Right. And my spouse and I recently were both autistic, fortunately, really, really, really happy. But we. We travel a lot. It's important for us to, you know, travel the world, go to places. We've been to Machu Picchu and Jordan, recently came to Jordan and Egypt, Rwanda and all these other places. I find joy. We find joy connecting with indigenous peoples, people who are accepting, who are loving, who are. Who have been here for time. Memorial. They're not in a rush. They're not going. They're not trying to do everything and trying to manipulate the world around them and the Earth. They are in balance with themselves, with the Earth, and find our best. And we recently went to National Park, Yellowstone national park, and for the first time in decades, I looked up, I went on a walk. I just had the inkling to go on a walk on the last day we were in national park, and I was just almost gutted by the beauty of seeing a night sky full of stars for the first time. It was so dark you could barely see in front of you, so no light pollution, which we're used to in the Western cities. So I looked up and it was. I saw all the Big Dipper, Small Dipper. I saw. This is. It's just gorgeous. And there's a certain level of, at least for me, in my African spirituality, in my background, having believed in the ancestors as being something that, you know, they're hard for me and they. I am deeply rooted in my ancestors. I'm deeply rooted in my tradition. So even when I'm alone, there's a certain kind of rootedness that comes with that. But looking at the stars, it reminded me one how majestic, beautiful and unknowing the universe is. And that, for me, brings calm and brings joy. There's beauty, there's mystery. I'm never going to know everything, and that's okay. There's nowhere to go, there's nothing to do. There's no test. It's going to be fine. Even if it's not and something happens, I'm not going to be here just to experience it. So let's just take a moment and just be with the sky. I hope more people do more of that.
Mino Vlachos: Chris, your words always touch me on such a deep level. And I really hope that I'm going to start giving a little bit of my kind of final thoughts and then I'll share. I'll ask you to share a little bit your final thoughts. But I. I encourage everyone who's listening to really look up Chris's website and to follow them on LinkedIn, follow them everywhere and anywhere I have had the great fortune of following. This is one of the first LinkedIn friends I've made, so it's possible now. And. And what Chris posts is resourceful, like amazing resources. It's very insightful. It's very. I love the Unique point of view. And so that's just, I'll just say I'll plug it now and I'll plug it at the end again. But just please, please find a way to follow Chris, My final thoughts is really for leaders because predominantly our listeners and viewers are leaders.
Chris D. Hooten: Right.
Mino Vlachos: In organization, organizations is you have a responsibility not only to all the people in your charge, but to ensure that the organization as a whole is healthy. There is only one way to truly do that and it is to put whatever belief systems you have aside and to make sure the people that you work with are prospering. And if you leave people out, especially on I think pretty arbitrary metrics you're doing, you're not doing your job. I'm going to. And so there's a lot of leaders I truly believe who are really not doing their job right now. You must create environments where employees can do their work. And so I'm very grateful to you Chris, for coming and just speaking to. There's so many, I know different groups that have different levels of kind of disparities, disenfranchisement and have systemic barriers. So we spoke to two of, of several. Right. But thank you from the bottom of my heart for sharing your wisdom, your expertise, your incredible soul with us. Because there is a beautiful spiritual element that we're missing again as you mentioned, in the kind of global Northwestern world, whatever we label it, the Eurocentric kind of world that stripped the soul and spirit out of work and living conditions. And it's something that we urgently, I really, my core feel we need to bring back. We are seeing what the results of this are. We're destroying our planet, destroying each other, destroying ourselves. And I really, I'm both optimistic and I just kind of almost pleading, I'm pleading with anyone listening like please, let's, let's stop this. There's a different way out there. And I think Chris has role modeled a different way that's much more fruitful for all of us. So Chris, any last thoughts from you as we start to wrap this up?
Chris D. Hooten: I think your point about the year sort of the light of the rate of pessimism, people tell me all the time, Chris, you're so optimistic. I said no, this isn't optimism, this is just, this is ancestor wisdom. When you are on this path and I know I sound, you know, sort of performative or like hokey, you know, woo, woo, that's fine, it's fine. I don't reject those things. I remember in my ancestral epigenetic history, in my memory, I Remember, I'm trying to get emotional here, but I remember the joy of waking up and not feeling like you had to go to a job. I remember that. I remember being in Africa with my people, with a village of people. And what you did to that day was you made food and you laughed at people and you loved and you cried and you told stories and you improving your craft and you maybe had dreams, but there wasn't. You didn't, you didn't have to worry about justifying yourself or working, you know, at a job or whether or not you were civilized. And I know for a fact that the world, the world will go back to that. Everything ends. Everything. People who are European is threatening and I hope that they don't. But the European hold. The world has only been around for a couple of hundred years. We act like it was 500 years. In reality, much of that was contentious and, you know, so it's only been the last 150, 20 years or so. Right. But it's a 500 year project and everything ends. The world will come back to a place where there was no colonization, where patriarchy was not as secure as it is, where warmongering was not a thing, where time obsession was not a thing. So I'm not optimistic because that's hopeful. I know for a fact that we're going to get there. The only exception is how much we're going to work together and contribute to that general outcome.
Mino Vlachos: Beautiful. And so I'll once again just share some information and it'll be in the show notes. But please visit chrishootenconsulting.com where you can find a plethora of resources and access to working with Chris.
Chris D. Hooten: Like you said, reach out to me via LinkedIn. I recently became a LinkedIn voice. In the last year, I went from 2,700 followers to almost 11,000. And I think like you said, it's because people are hungry for another way of looking at them. I think people are open to the idea of being, creating, affirming stress, resilient, gender affirming, neuro inclusive workplaces. This is awesome. We don't have to do it this way and people are finding it happier. So I encourage people to reach out, even if they're just organizing affinity groups, spaces, employee resource groups, or you're having a link and learn. Reach out. I'd like to hear from you.
Mino Vlachos: Excellent. So thank you so much, Chris. And with that, we're going to conclude the podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today.