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E6 Successful Start-Ups, Founder Relations, Investor Dynamics

March 2024

67 minutes

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Episode Notes

90% of start-ups fail and one of the big reasons is misalignment and poor relating dynamics between Founders. Additionally, Founders typically disrespect their Investors and the funds that they bring in. In this episode we share some personal experiences and client examples of healthy and unhealthy team dynamics between Founders. We also explore how to have better relations with Investors, co-owners and the Board.

is a global, leadership-strategy consulting company. 3Peak creates the roadmap that aligns behaviours, relationships and Functional Human-Systems™ to achieve your business strategy.

Co-Founder holds a Ph.D. in Neuroscience, and did extensive research in Consciousness, Trauma and Physical, Emotional & Mental Health in various Institutes and Research Centers around Europe.

Co-Founder is one of the most sought after therapists in the world, mastering diverse modalities and opening wellness centers in Istanbul, Santiago, New York and Berlin. Her approaches bridges transpersonal psychology, meditation, bioenergetics, family- and business-constellations and more.

Co-Founder has extensive experience advising Fortune 50 and FTSE 100 C-Suite Executives in leadership, strategy, team dynamics, and organizational change. Before coaching, Mino worked in finance, management consulting, and mergers and acquisitions (M&A).


Mino: Hello and welcome to the three peak master leadership experience.

Mino: My name is Mino and I'm joined by Dr. Mazen Harb and Krisana Locke.

Mino: We are the founders of 3Peak Coaching and Solutions, where master leaders build.

Mino: Healthy systems and we run this business.

Mino: That supports other businesses with their leadership and wellness.

Mino: So our topic for today, we return to the world of startups. We already made a previous podcast episode which we'll link to in the show notes, but we continue the series today by talking about founders and the relationship between founders as well as investors. So as we usually like to do, we're going to begin with a little bit of our own experience, so it's rooted in something real, and then we're going to move more to our client experiences and some principles that support folks to have healthy relationships amongst founders. So to begin with, Krisana Mazen, you've worked with each other for many years now, so I'd like to hear from.

Mino: Each of you what has supported you.

Mino: In your journey with tantric energetics to have a good relationship. So I'll start with Krisana.

Mino: What supported you to have a good.

Mino: Relationship with Mazen as you built tantric energetics?

Mazen: The first, I'm really curious, we never asked those questions.

Krisana: So yeah, the first I knew that he was the person who was going.

Krisana: To match the part that I was bringing to tantric energetics.

Krisana: It was an innate wisdom and innate.

Krisana: Deep feeling that this is the person, this is not even the person, this.

Krisana: Is the right, this is it.

Krisana: Also because of the relationship of building tantric energetics was because of we both had the same vision of life, the same vision of what we want to share through tantric energetics, and also a.

Krisana: Very grounded, wise person I found in.

Krisana: Mazen and also with his capabilities and his wisdom in neuroscience and much more. So it really was a compliment for me, so that for my background and.

Krisana: So it was like it was coming.

Krisana: Together on both that I knew that.

Krisana: Would meld together to share something.

Krisana: So when you say relationship, I knew and deep respect, deep respect of what we were creating with tantric energetics and.

Krisana: To respect that body of work, that body of this platform that's going out.

Krisana: To the world, like to respect how each other works, how each other contributes. That was important for me and not.

Krisana: Overstepping that and a dance with that.

Mino: Mazen

Mino: We've heard about some of the beautiful ways that you came together and complemented each other. Let me ask most humans, they have.

Mino: Moments where there might not be 100%.

Mino: Alignment or there's a communication difference or whatever, a friction can emerge. What has supported you in tantric energetics as the human parts emerge? And how do you manage the human parts? As two co founders and directors of this beautiful personal development company, it's really.

Mazen: Important to in that line of work, to do the work we were personal doing personal development. So imagine, just imagine the possibilities and.

Mazen: The opportunities that we had at hand.

Mazen: All the time evolving.

Mazen: So I would say, first of all.

Mazen: I really had to learn and accept.

Mazen: That we are here to evolve as.

Mazen: A human through the experience of what we founded and creating that serves others. So really that was the understanding that.

Mazen: Really later on helped me when I was struggling in a normal work relationship.

Mazen: Together, to really remember. Actually everything is always evolving and I really have to learn how to adapt.

Mazen: And work through it.

Mazen: And actually it's for the benefit in even more everything we learn later on. We really supported people in personal development and in their life.

Mazen: So.

Mazen: As a human's priorities, priorities, priorities.

Mazen: There's the work which is really serving.

Mazen: Clients, serving in person development.

Mazen: That means people come to us as raw as possible.

Mazen: So we need to create safe container.

Mazen: And we have responsibilities.

Mazen: And then there is us as a.

Mazen: Humans, with our own issues and our own evolution. The example we gave also yesterday in.

Mazen: A meeting, the triangle, the pyramid. So I think we succeeded.

Mazen: I really want to say like 99%, if not 100% basic on one innate.

Mazen: Understanding, wisdom we both share.

Mazen: And then when we lost it, because we lose it, you lose it often. We came back to it and then it created the container of like, watch out. So there was a rule, because you.

Mazen: Don'T have anyone above you to tell you what to do. You are your own bosses. And then everything is for you to learn and then to deal with.

Mazen: So you have to take full responsibility. But then we have really dealing with clients on topics of trauma and all these vulnerabilities when people come to you.

Mazen: And really open up.

Mazen: So it's really this understanding.

Mazen: The service was to really share with people. Whenever we at work with people, the people come first. That's it.

Mazen: Regardless if personally, as founders and the.

Mazen: Directors, we're struggling with something, with a topic, all, everything. It's about the client, everything.

Mazen: During that one I'm doing the workshop.

Mazen: Where are we sharing?

Mazen: Then this is the first priority. Then comes.

Mazen: You have to see it as a triangle, because I'll flip it. Then comes the relating between the both roles and the both individuals.

Mazen: Then once we take care that everyone's doing well while we're doing a workshop, then we can deal with our own issues. Then lastly, on a third point comes.

Mazen: My own personal issue that I bring with my day to day life.

Mazen: I'm struggling with this, with that. This we really protected so hardly not.

Mazen: To pollute the work.

Mazen: When we are working with clients, that comes last.

Mazen: Absolutely last.

Mazen: Where I am, what I'm struggling with. So now I will say the opposite.

Mazen: I come last.

Mazen: Krisana and I is relating. We come second because. And then what comes first is declines.

Mazen: But, and that's the magic of the success in understanding boundaries. Boundaries and principles of relating and professionalism. The moment we finished a workshop, a retreat, a session, either I say to.

Mazen: Everyone bye, or she says bye, or.

Mazen: We stop a call.

Mazen: I let go completely of the client, completely of the service. I become myself and Krisana becomes herself.

Mazen: The pyramid flips immediately.

Mazen: I am my main and only concern.

Mazen: After work, no one else. I come first, Krisana comes first.

Mazen: So what comes second is how we.

Mazen: Relate to each other. So I take care of myself, she.

Mazen: Takes care of herself. And then we go. And then we deal with our thing. And what comes third is the client. Because at this moment I'm not serving them, but actually I'm working on whatever, developing something.

Mazen: So that's the idea, to know, change the roles.

Mazen: Priority depends on where you are and what I was doing. For me, that's the key of success.

Mazen: Of that seven years that it went.

Mazen: Like.

Mazen: Full synergy and full enjoyment of growth.

Krisana: I think I would like to also add to that, that when we say the client comes first, this is in our programs, in our services, in even one on one sessions, there's a parameter, there's a healthy frame where I'm in.

Krisana: The role of providing a service, providing expertise, both of us.

Krisana: And in that, where there's for personal development, we're helping them build or achieve or have outcomes.

Krisana: But a client doesn't come first for.

Krisana: Twenty four seven of my life, that is, then we don't have clear boundaries. So it's in this setting, a space where people know, they can process, they have a field and then they can apply what they've learned into their life.

Krisana: So I just wanted to add that.

Mazen: That is beautiful. Actually more of an understanding. Don't bring your clients home. Don't bring your clients to your relationship. Don't bring your clients into your issue, with your intimate partners, with your parents. Everyone is dealing with their own issues. But then whenever you work with your.

Mazen: Work partners and focusing, put all your attention there.

Mazen: Really like boundaries, healthy boundaries and priority is the key for success.

Mazen: Yes.

Mino: So now I shift us to the company we've created, the three of us. 3peak coaching and solutions. So by way of background, I worked with you in tantric Energetics as a.

Mino: Participant, as said client for five years.

Mino: I believe, before we started talking about 3peak. So on one hand I say, wow, I had such a benefit of learning and growing for us to develop really strong bonds and trust. I think you know me inside now and I've come to learn you very well through the work we've done with each other. So on one hand I can say, I know feedback. We get, we know it, but we get feedback from clients of wow. The three of you always speak with one voice. It's almost confusing to them how one person can speak and it represents the.

Mino: Three and there's almost never any. It's always been the case.

Mino: I've never had someone speak on behalf.

Mino: Of us and it's not true.

Mino: So they look at us and say, it's astounding how much you are in unity speaking with one voice. They see how united we are in our mission. So I say, okay. The five years we had where we were in that different relating dynamics supported us to create that whatever, common language, common values, common tools. But I know when we were first, the first weekend we sought to create three peak coaching and solutions. We were doing a big brainstorming. We had this amazing four days in Greece where we were driving around and figuring out if we wanted to do something, how we would do it together. And there was a point halfway through that kind of brainstorming exploration where I had like a mini freak out, I had my own meltdown. Because the two of you have already had these working relationships, you knew each other, there was a familiarity in how you worked with each other.

Mino: Then here I was this third and.

Mino: I didn't know my role fully. I didn't know where I belonged or what my responsibilities were or what I could share almost. And of course, I always have been struggling with self doubt anyways, so that's a whole topic for a different episode. But it was interesting to see that.

Mino: Yeah, it's not like it started from.

Mino: This necessarily amazing place. And along the way we've had to.

Mino: Learn how to communicate.

Mino: What has supported me is really more and more to figure out our roles.

Mino: In the company and how those roles.

Mino: Need to interact with each other versus the interpersonal relationship part is secondary to the role within the company. So that's some of my takeaways is like, of course, we did have common values, common tools, ways of speaking with each other certain understandings about whatever the emotions and the body. But we still had some figuring out to do in terms of roles and how to communicate within those roles. That's my perception. Krisana, what do you think supports us as co founders? There's three of us to remain aligned and to operate our company and to have this harmony that we really enjoy.

Krisana: Communication, healthy communication, that's really the first step.

Krisana: And also noticing when we feel the.

Krisana: Rhythm is out, there's a rhythm.

Krisana: So that's more of a sensing. So, you know, okay, we're in tune. We're sort of not in tune.

Krisana: There's no judgment, there's no about it.

Krisana: It's like an inner sensing, but basically it's really clear communication. It's about communicating.

Krisana: That's what I would.

Krisana: We can say we have our positions, we know our task, our skill set, our roles.

Krisana: And sometimes one is doing this and.

Krisana: One is aware, and it's all going.

Krisana: Well, but it's communication, because we're not static.

Krisana: We're in different phases and spaces. So it's really communicating.

Krisana: Where are we at?

Krisana: Is there something that needs to be discussed?

Krisana: So this is very key. That's what I'm going to say, big one. If you don't communicate, you're on your.

Krisana: Own little islands thinking, I'm doing my thing, and it may not be the right thing.

Krisana: And so I say, hey, do we all have the channels flowing? Sometimes channels get blocked.

Mino: So, can I ask, when you talk about communication, what does that look like? Because some people, they say, well, I talk to my co founder, we talk all the time, but what does communication.

Mino: Look like for you? What does that mean?

Krisana: We can talk. We can talk blah, blah. We can talk business, juggle, and we.

Krisana: Can talk words about things, but many things. But we really have to communicate what is happening?

Krisana: What is going on?

Krisana: Is there something that's not moving or.

Krisana: There'S an upset in the system of working or a process or.

Krisana: We have to communicate what we understand.

Krisana: What we don't understand. We want to create this communion, to stand under an understanding together. So communication is not talking, it's also.

Krisana: Deep listening, allowing the other person to really share and to really listen without.

Krisana: Resistance, without judgment, to really take in what they're saying, without trying to analyze it, to give space.

Krisana: Because out of that, this communion, this communication, can happen. And then we can also contribute what.

Krisana: We'Ve heard or what we understand is missing. So communicating to bring in the missing pieces.

Krisana: I hope I've shared my understanding.

Mino: Yeah.

Mino: So, Mazen, we each have different roles, different positions. One of which I'm always admiring so much is that you hold a vision for our company. So whatever I can think strategically, I can think, let's say five years out. I can even sometimes think 200 years out. Sometimes I think you can think millennia and beyond eternity about. So time is beyond the realm of this conversation. But one thing you do amazing is.

Mino: You look at the health of our organization, you look at the whole.

Mino: And so from your role, when you think about what has supported us and what you do to support us as co founders, what enables our success and our synergy.

Mazen: I already wrote them. Funny. I was really ready to add. I could speak a lot about the.

Mazen: Vision, but then you brought the question.

Mazen: Back to what's written here.

Mazen: And I can speak more about how to keep.

Mazen: It healthy, probably after that three words. And I'm really in the to understand.

Mazen: Reality as it is, understanding those words.

Mazen: As they are, not as we want to perceive them. Respect, appreciation and understanding. If any of them is missing, good luck. Question. Because none of it can be replaced by any other value. This same words would reply to why communication works. No, we're not always happy and all doing well.

Mazen: I do remember when we project on.

Mazen: Each other, and then I'm like, but.

Mazen: What bring me back is the respect.

Mazen: Appreciation to each one, understanding why that might have happened yet after I reacted, but then go back.

Mazen: So we create a buffer and that's it.

Mazen: No, we're very human.

Mazen: We jump on each other sometimes not so much because we worked a lot, but if anything happened, we go back to the buffer.

Mazen: The buffer is really respect, appreciate, understanding. And that's what really happens when things starts to fail. Power games start to be played because one of those three values is missing.

Mazen: It cannot be replaced. I cannot emphasize enough, it cannot be.

Mazen: Replaced by another value. If it's out, it's out. Either the three of them, or the ship will struggle to sail.

Mino: So I'll add my angle, speaking kind of off top of my head. But there's a couple of things that for me, within my role, that I feel like have helped our success. One is sometimes, because I help run the operations of the business, I tend to be the filter sometimes between our business and the outside world. And there are some folks that I've.

Mino: Noticed desire to split us apart.

Mino: So there's been a desire for me to start politicking or advice, or there's.

Mino: Like the fear, or just take care.

Mino: Of yourself, fuck those other two, if I'm going to be honest. Right? That's the memos sometimes. And so one thing that's really important is that for me, the mission of three peak is the most important. And to fulfill that, the three of.

Mino: Us need to be unified at all times.

Mino: The moment I step into fear or politicking or greed or splitting us up.

Mino: The whole thing will collapse.

Mino: Because then we're not going to move together and it's going to start to get very shaky. And then the outside world will perceive that. And then why would they want to buy our services?

Mino: So that's one thing. That if there are people out there.

Mino: That either thinking about starting a company or have started a company, be very careful about outside influences that might, in theory, be wanting the best for you as an individual, but not see the bigger picture. That what's actually good for you as an individual is what's good for your company as a whole.

Mino: They might forget that and actually just.

Mino: Try to maneuver you or give you advice to go in a very short sighted, individualistic path, which I think will destroy your company.

Mino: So you can choose that, God bless you, but it'll kill your company.

Mino: The other thing that, as you were speaking, Mazen came to me is I did a workshop with Krisan Mazen. Personal development, tantric, energetics. And one of the big insights I had is sometimes I can get very angry, right? And so if I get angry with someone or I have that friction, I go right into the antagonism, like the fight. And one of the big insights I had when we were in the Dominican Republic was this. Of many insights. But one of them I had was what I called fuck you, I love you.

Mino: Which is, I'm mad at you, but.

Mino: I'm still going to keep my heart.

Mino: Open to you right now.

Mino: And one thing that in the minor moments we've had conflict.

Mazen: What? I do remember it.

Mino: Yeah.

Mazen: How can I forget such a thing? Beautiful sentence.

Mino: So one of the things that came up for me when we have minor, whatever disagreements is, I can go into that like I'm against this person, very much like judging them or want to fight them and keeping the heart open. So the big thing I try to.

Mino: Do is if I ever feel animosity.

Mino: The link I try to make in.

Mino: My brain is to then ask, well.

Mino: What does actually that person need?

Mino: How can I be in service of them?

Mino: Where might they be struggling?

Mino: And I can do something to support them.

Mino: So that's why sometimes, Mazen, you get memos from me where I'm like, hey, is everything all right? Can I support you? I might actually be mad at you. When I do that, just so you know. No, but it's not. Yeah, sorry, the bomb. No, but it's about me processing my emotions, taking responsibility and the friction I feel like is maybe actually there is an imbalance and I should be giving more.

Mino: So for me, it is a way of going beyond my own little bullshit.

Mino: So that I can be in service of my partners, my company.

Mino: And most times when I've done that.

Mino: Usually there is some kind of imbalance that I can help you with something or support you or give, or sometimes.

Mino: Not, but it moves the company forward.

Mino: It gets things moving again.

Mino: I don't have that with Krisana.

Mino: Sorry. I just have. I love you. I don't have fuck you. But with you, man, sometimes I have fuck you. I love you.

Mazen: Yeah, probably that's years and years of men being fighting against each other. So it's normal that it comes our generational thing, but yeah, I love it in the podcast dropping that. And then you think all those, not all, few messages when you're there, hey, is this something I can support you? And now I'm like, I took them. That's cute of him. And now you told me actually, because you were angry and mad.

Mazen: And I'm like, one moment I have to reflect then, but I love it.

Mazen: And that's the trust that you know.

Mazen: How to take care of yourself.

Mazen: And that's what relaxes me, that each one of us know how to really take care of themselves. And then when they cannot, we can.

Mazen: Come to each other and support each other as a team. And that relaxes me. That's what creates safety in our company.

Mino: Yeah.

Mino: Because in those moments, I don't know that I can be very articulate, but it's not about you. So that anger that manifests is something for me to take care of. Like you talked about with the triangle, right? So it's something for me to attend to. To throw it at you would be unfair.

Mino: And actually, for me to show compassion.

Mino: For this other human being that is always I'm directing towards Mazen. Because, Chris, I just don't have this relating dynamic with you.

Mazen: I was like, I never got one of those memos.

Mino: But with Mazen, I'm like, this is an individual that almost more than anyone I've seen on this planet, tries so hard, has such an open heart, is always like finding a different way to share love. And so if there is a friction between us, it's like you said, respect, acknowledgment, understanding. I'm like, I can project whatever I want.

Mino: On you.

Mino: Sure, that's one strategy, but the other is to see you as you are. Even if something doesn't fit with me and my personality, the intent behind what.

Mino: You'Re doing is always that.

Mino: So if I can remember that and be true about it and then show.

Mino: You compassion and actually give something, then.

Mino: We'Ve strengthened our bond and not deteriorated.

Mino: It, which is what I feel like.

Mino: If I lashed out with projection and.

Mino: Anger, that's what would happen.

Mino: We would go into a fight, and.

Mino: We'Re both smart, and we can both fucking fight.

Mino: So it would be a cage match. So that's another strategy we could play out, and we've done that once in.

Mino: A while, but not of late.

Mazen: It's really incredible how you can really articulate that. I feel really touched because actually, you're.

Mazen: Just proving why we function well and.

Mazen: Really bringing it live here on this podcast and really showing a very tangible experiment experience. I'm like, yes to everything you said. Yes. And we never sat and spoke about them in details. We stuck to the understanding, inner understanding, and how we're relating. It's not about philosophy or psychotherapy, what we're doing, but now when I hear it, I feel, oh, wow. Actually, now I see the intricate work.

Mazen: Of why it's functioning.

Mazen: So thank you. You're giving me a certain understanding from.

Mazen: Your own perspective, and then, yeah.

Mazen: So all what I had to do for me is to stick to those values. And I know that the three of us share. I like to stick with the macro.

Mazen: Not the micro, and then not to.

Mazen: Be lost in petty mind games, because really, the mind will take over, and then power game starts to happen. Because I want to be heard. I want to be validated, I want to be seen. And I know that the three of us might probably have it a little.

Mazen: Bit, but we really go back to.

Mazen: Actually, we're not here by coincidence. We're not replaceable, the three of us. We're not because an investor came and then put us together, and then they work amazingly together. We really chose each other. I know it's not that easy sometimes to choose your founder, your partner. Of course we can support in that. There's other ways. But again, to stick to those respect, appreciation, acknowledgment, understanding.

Mazen: We got fortunate enough to be patient, to wait until we cross paths and then to initiate together.

Krisana: I think also with these words that you wrote down, communication is also about.

Krisana: Being seen, being heard, and being understood.

Krisana: Even when you're communicating. And in that sense, in communication, if.

Krisana: Someone even has that ability to listen.

Krisana: To see the person, to hear really what the person's saying and let them be understood. That also opens in communication a bigger.

Krisana: Bridge of connecting and moving things forward. In your business, with your partners, with your team, that's an art.

Krisana: And one has to learn how to have healthy communicating. One has to learn what are the components in that that make it. Because one can say, oh, I respect him.

Krisana: Yeah, I respect you, but you're saying it.

Krisana: But the subtech, there's an undertone that is not respect. That's different.

Krisana: Respect is really taking in those principles.

Mino: Yeah.

Mino: What I wanted to share is that I've learned over the last year or two is the filtering between the self and the relationship and where to whatever, communicate, bring things up or whatever express and where there are moments of whatever.

Mino: This is for me to handle on.

Mino: My own and to process and to forgive and let go. And it's not important.

Mino: So the filter for me has become.

Mino: If I'm feeling something inside me and I, whatever, have some idea that it's.

Mino: In theory between us, I ask, is.

Mino: This behavior or this thing I'm upset.

Mino: About, does it impact the three peak mission or is it impacting, just quote unquote me.

Mino: And if it's impacting the mission, then.

Mino: I will choose a way to communicate responsibly.

Mino: If it's something just about me, then I consider that honestly at this point, it's something for me to handle by myself and to bring it up has nothing to do with the company and won't affect the company. It's something for me to process on my own and take responsibility on my own. So there are of course, probably minor annoyances or things that happen, but for.

Mino: Me, communication is not like, okay, so.

Mino: Now I got to tell you everything.

Mino: That I'm feeling because yeah, there are.

Mino: Times that both of you I have minor annoyances with, but it's never crossed the threshold, especially with Croissant. It doesn't cross the threshold of like now I need to make an issue out of it. So if I'm annoyed with Croissanta, it's never about three peak. So then I'm like, I'm not going to tell you.

Mino: It's for me to go process it.

Mino: On my own and figure out my own BS and why I want to throw it on you and project it on you.

Mino: It's not about the company.

Mino: Whereas Mazen, sometimes we cross that line. So then we do talk, but that's for me. And even with my personal relationship with my partner Angela, I have that same now filter of like, is this me.

Mino: Just being annoyed and I need to.

Mino: Take some space for myself or go to take a walk or process? Or is this actually about the relationship and needs to be then communicated responsibly? I don't know why this is my session. I guess I'm airing things out.

Mazen: You seem both a little surprised.

Mino: There's no way you're not annoyed with me at some point.

Mazen: No, I'm loving it.

Mazen: I'm loving your full transparency, honesty, sincerity. And I did this because actually it's balanced. So there's some places where you're annoyed and now relating with each other, but some other instances with Krisana. So there's boundary between what I like it.

Krisana: I'm going to share. The other day I was going on.

Krisana: My bike, not even thinking about work.

Krisana: Because I was going to do some.

Krisana: Strength training and I was going there.

Krisana: And you came into my mind.

Krisana: I was like, Mino, what's happening to him?

Krisana: And then I just went, oh, if that's a projection, I'll just kind of energetically move out of the way and I'm still going with my bike.

Krisana: That's to do with you, nothing to do with me. So you sense sometimes, but this is.

Krisana: The field I work in, in resonance.

Krisana: And also inter intra.

Krisana: And I was like, I know, and it's my own doing.

Krisana: But it was like, okay, he will work that out. But I do pick up pinching.

Krisana: Something's going on, but it's a pinch with myself or a pinch that's coming to me.

Krisana: So I wish the person well with their own things that they have to digest and process.

Mazen: So scientifically, when we hear that really.

Mazen: To all founders, all humans, all doesn't matter without the label of it. Whenever we focus three minds on one mission, one vision, we start sharing a mental field and to a certain degree, an emotional field, not only a physical field in each other presence.

Mazen: So that means when you go to sleep or when this, that's why synergy starts to happening. I'm not going to go into the consciousness research and the science and the quantum physics.

Mazen: I don't think it's the right topic.

Mazen: But I invite people to go search and do their own studies.

Mazen: I hope another podcast. We speak about all of that, but.

Mazen: We share in the physical realm, in the quantum physical realm, we really share. The thought form is really shared. There's no boundaries, there's no time and space. If I start projecting and if I put all my attention, my emotion, my thought and even my words toward against someone, we are really polluting the field. And this person won't know probably at certain point, probably they're not so in tune, but they will feel something is happening and then arguments and fights start building and we do not know why.

Mazen: And it's because of unconscious things. So what I'm trying to say as well is there is no secret in heaven. Heaven in that sense means beyond that physical body, there is absolutely no secret.

Mazen: Every thought, every information, everything we receive and everything we emit through our electromagnetic.

Mazen: Charge, heart and brain is transmitted, broadcasted everywhere. Few people pick up.

Mazen: And that's what we call intuition, creative thought that came.

Mazen: It's all open.

Mazen: And the more we more get in tune and you realize, oh wow, I cannot hide it because your whole body.

Mazen: System start to really show it, represent how.

Mazen: And then people like, that's why people.

Mazen: Can a lot notice when you're not in a great mood. Dogs, animals, kids, they pick up on that and they're like, stay away. And then imagine us as people and.

Mazen: Working together because we're so conditioned not.

Mazen: To notice and see it.

Mazen: You have to understand that your emotional.

Mazen: And physical body detect everything that's not aligning.

Mazen: So all what's happening and unconscious is.

Mazen: Really shared with everyone.

Mino: So this is a beautiful example of, if I can be so bold, like a very high functioning team where we not only have the history of working with each other, we have the similar vision and values. We use our tools on ourselves constantly. So anything we're sharing with our clients around leadership, self leadership, communication, we're practicing it, practicing, practicing it. We take so much care with the roles that we have and have the maturity to step in and out of roles. So for instance, we use one application to send instant messages for work and.

Mino: We use a different application altogether to.

Mino: Send personal friendship messages. So imessage for friendliness and signal for work. We use different emails for friendliness and for work. So we know how to step in and out of these roles and communicate. What role are you in right now? Are you in a professional role or personal role?

Mino: So this is what a potential image.

Mino: Of, I think a very good, healthy, high performing team can look like. Now let's take a look at some other cases where that might not be the case. So now we're going to look at some of the experience we've had with our clients and share a little bit of what supported them. So I'm thinking about in particular, we did some work with a non for profit and originally they had some co founders and then whatever, it didn't work out. There was fights.

Mino: The company ended.

Mino: The non for profit organization came to an end, then it was rebooted. And then there's the new co founders, but they're still not aligned. So let me begin with Korsana.

Mino: You've worked with many people, many companies, many co founders.

Mino: What are some of the issues you see that can ultimately end up breaking.

Mino: Up a company as it's getting started.

Krisana: Not clarifying the roles and the positions and.

Krisana: Well, I know when I'm just, I'm just thinking when we have worked with companies and we're looking on the organizational level, you can see very clearly when there's communication, there's a breakdown in the system and they're not aware of it because people are not in their right functions or doing their functions or in their roles or even not sure what is their role.

Krisana: They're put somewhere and.

Krisana: They'Re not in their right role.

Krisana: So.

Krisana: That'S what I first can say is that's the first thing we look at. Is everyone aware of their position and.

Krisana: Their function and their tasks? What else can you add to it?

Krisana: Marzen? This is just really what I'm just trying to think of. And very bad communication and overstepping each other. Lots of conflict, not even. There's no respect. There's also starting the organization or the company with not very clear ground rules or principles. It's a bit shady that's going to also fall apart. So it was done on manipulations, it was done on wrong intentions. It's done on wrong desires. Maybe even if someone brings in money, maybe the money wasn't brought in in a healthy way. When things are shady, you bring in a shady business, you bring in upsets and mishaps happening that will stay in your company. So you have to be very clear.

Krisana: Very honest, and formulate the company on.

Krisana: Roles, not on unconscious bonding and unconscious emotional relationships.

Mino: So for those watching on the video on YouTube, you'll see I had a background change. So I was renting a podcast room and my time ran out. So now I have changed. For those listening, there might be a difference in my audio quality. So I wanted to just let people know that there's been a little bit of a shift in our podcast episode, but we're going to pick up where we were before the change in scenery. So, Mazen, when you think about clients we've supported and founders, sometimes they don't get along or the company ultimately fails because the alignment between the founders is not united. What have you observed in terms of how founders can get it wrong between themselves.

Mazen: Honestly, you just gave me such a broad question, I don't know if I want to answer. It's so broad because there's so many possibilities. There really so many possibilities? As many as there is personalities, Persona and mask within our psyche. Within our personality. Yeah, probably that's see how I'm building the answer. The personality, the identification, the identities we come with really plays a big part. Do not underestimate that. Because one of the worst thing that happens to an identification, to identity we're trying to create is that it gets threatened if I believe I am a CEO or I am the founder, and without really focusing on the service itself, on really being a good team member. So if I'm thinking about how to keep my identity or my personality alive, then this is where things starts to really becoming difficult. So priority is the priority. I am when I'm creating with my co founders the identity to keep it and protect it, or I can really let go of my ego about me, it's all about me. And stick to why you're here. The vision and the mission still, it's part of you. It's actually really attention, focus, like shift in the focus and the attention. It's still about you, but it can be about you in a sense of stick to your mission, stick to your vision, stick to that honesty. Why are we here for and if we are really here for ourselves? To create more identity, more positioning in the society, or to feel ourselves big, or we see ourselves now I have a value now I'm someone. It will be really shaken and by and by, with time, all of these illusions will deflate in a way or another. And that makes the initiative more risky.

Mino: So let me ask it in a concrete way. I know a lot of founders and a lot of them, if I'm going to be blunt, they don't care about what they're working on. They don't care about the product, they don't care about the service. What they care about is that I will found a company and then 510 years from now, I'm going to sell the company and I'm going to become a multimillionaire. Right? So that's one possibility. Or there's a different possibility where you see folks that are so focused on it's just all about the product and actually these relationship things, this communication thing, that's not that important, whatever. People aren't that important. The people building the thing aren't that important. I really just focus on the strategy of my company and that's all. That's important to me. So these are two different examples. Let's take them one by one. In the case of the founder, that's like, I don't really care what I do as long as I'm building a company that I can sell. That's case A. Case B is I don't care about the people, I don't care about my relationships. We're going to just focus on strategy. What is the outcome in these two cases?

Mazen: Let us start case a. Case A, the founder is really also working part of creating, building the company. Yes. So in the case A, that doesn't matter what happens, just really focusing on creating Fortune 510 years ago. It's really, one really need to have a full conviction in the belief of separation. Be convinced that in separation, something can be created and fortune and abundance can happen. The answer is cannot. How can you separate fortune from the work? How can you separate fortune from where you're really doing every single day? If every single day there is no attention and care for the service, how do you expect it to give you so much? So we cannot separate ourselves to that extent and then ask to be successful and have a meaningful life. So that shows a separation within oneself and within one's service. It's impossible. And if it's possible, it might work for one, but not for the 10,000 after that, or for few. But even when it works, it work on short term memory. A short term. Short term. Sorry, I said short term memory. I come back to my neuroscience days. I worked a lot on memory and learning.

Krisana: It just makes me think of a tactician in a boat. He wants to go and get the treasure. He's got the strategy. Betty ain't got no boat to sail there or a team.

Mino: Yeah. If I oversimplify, there's fundamentally two forces in starting a business. One is, I'll put it this way, whatever, take it with a grain of salt. There's a problem out there, and I offer a solution for it, or there's a question that needs answering, and I'm happy to go answer it on behalf of the world, the cosmos. So that's the service orientated direction, which is there's something out there that needs me. So I want to go. Either explore it, address it, solve it. So that's one way. The other is I'm here to get something for myself. So you're starting with this orientation of I want to be a millionaire. I know one of the vehicles to do it if I want to go fast, because it's all about get rich quick is I start a company and I can sell it. Right? You can also become a millionaire by working for 40 years at a corporation and steadily going up the ladder. But instead I get rich quick. I start my company, I know I can sell it, and then from there I don't really care because I'm not working towards a problem, a solution, a service. I'm just here in service of myself. Fundamentally, it's possible to succeed doing that, but it's going to either be collapsing at some point or you're going to be quite unhappy. I find when you do end up getting those millions because you have no meaning in your life. You have the money and then you have no direction because you never actually sought to be in service or to solve a problem or to bring some new awareness or understanding that we didn't have as a species into the world. So the path of getting rich quick is a very empty one. Even if you quote unquote succeed, then you end up having a personal crisis right after you quote unquote succeed.

Krisana: True, very true.

Mino: What about case B, where the relationships don't matter? It's just all about the strategy, the tactics, the product. I don't care about my other co founder. All this human stuff isn't really that important. Ultimately.

Mazen: You're speaking about many of my clients. This is where we most fall in. And I love it because I have admiration, because probably I come from that approach of it. You build all your life working on your expertise, on your know how, on your ability to focus, and we are pretty much like that. So if we have both of us missed that part, we would have end up struggling. So I understand that expertise, focusing all your life, creating your know how, hence, and then you really do it. But no human is an island. No man is an island. Again, funny. It's another belief of separation. The illusion of the belief in separation. It's still here. It's the same actually. You have to see them. It's the same. It's the same answer. Both is a belief in separation. That means living in illusion of. I can make it on my own without collaborating and cooperating with the ones around me. One needs to control to an amazing extent, exert control through force and really dissociate, disconnect with the reaction and response of their environment. So I don't see really how. And actually anyhow, I'm always ending up coaching and consulting such amazing leaders because most of them are genius, they are pioneers, they're fantastic. And plus they're aware enough to call us to support. So they really notice they might be struggling a bit, of course, a bit of humbling to understand. What if I bring support because I'm really good in my know how, but I'm not good in my social relating because I don't think it's important, but actually it is super important to have a team that you can rely on and they can rely on you. I'll end up with this. We always give it an understanding. Principal laws, nature, and everything within nature follows a natural law, which is everything that's part of this planet. And parts of nature is interdependent, yet autonomous. And this is our body, this is each organ, each organ within us is autonomous, yet interdependent to everything else. But imagine each organ or each part of a family member, say, I am alone. I'm like, it's just an illusion. You have to create an identity of separation to believe. I don't need anyone in the society, but I'm like, but how do you go and get your milk? Yeah, I don't care. And I'm like, no, you have to rely. And then you say, I don't need anything, and I go off grid. But even off grid, there is nature that's serving you. As long as you eat, breathe, go to the toilet, there is something serving you. And I imagine that's mostly humans. So again, a belief in separation that makes people struggle in case A and then case B, and letting go of that illusion and see reality as is we cooperating, collaborating species that rely on a natural law of interdependent yet autonomous.

Mazen: Persona.

Krisana: I was really listening and I was like, wow. Reflecting and digesting that. It's very much about interdependence and autonomy and having those both and understanding. Some people were full of desires, how desires drive them. And desires are of the mind, and they're not connected to oneself and to others as well. I totally back you with this. The laws of business, the laws of the universe, the principles, they all have to be respected for a healthy organization, a healthy company, a healthy team, and respect between founders. So healthy.

Mino: So let's now consider one other relating dynamic is many founders, they choose to bring in investors, so people who will own a piece of the company. And then of course, there's relating dynamics that come from that. So for instance, I remember last year, we worked with a company and we also worked with the board, so the investors that owned that startup, and there were many relationship dynamics that emerged between those two entities. Mazen, from your experience, and I also know the two of you are also on the. You also have board positions, chair positions in an NGO that you've started. What does a healthy relationship look like between investors and founders? Mazen, do you want to start?

Mazen: Yes, I will pick it from. I'll use again the Rau, the respect, appreciation, acknowledging and understanding. Rau, when you put them together, respect, appreciation and understanding. If you really want to like essential oil, if you really want to really put it together and then take out the essence, what comes up?

Mazen: Trust.

Mazen: Giving another equation. Let us start easy. Let us not go check those three words. Let us check the essence of those three words coming together. The moment the investors and the board members is missing trust, that's an issue. We stop. That's it doesn't make absolutely no sense to make any effort. And then we say, yes, but we're going to build trust with time. I'm like, you don't build trust with time. When you are in the middle of the ocean and really sailing, you're in the middle of ocean sailing. Before you went through that row, that sailing around the planet, you should have checked. I'm not saying that everybody should be the best. They can have room for improvement. We can do mistakes upon mistake, trials and error. Yes, it's really suggested, but actually, if there is no trust, there's nothing. And then you're going to tell me, okay, there is trust. Then I go back, cool. Is there respect? There is appreciation and acknowledging everyone in their role. And as a humans, it bears understanding and of course, roles definition. You add those three with exact roles and function. If they match, check. It matches on trust, it matches on respect, appreciation, understanding, and it matches on the role and on communication. That's it, you're good to go. And then with it, with time, you learn the art of communication. But you have really good values, good foundation principles, but you'll have other challenges. So I'll make it the other way. If any of that is missing, there is a big risk. And when all of that are there, there's still room for other challenges and improve other things. That's what I want to say.

Mino: So, Krisana, I know when I talk to people who are founders and they have investors, honestly, the number one thing I hear is complaining. I have almost never, I think, to my knowledge, heard of someone acknowledging or respecting the investor. So what dynamics does that bring when a founder is actively kind of criticizing or complaining about this person that's brought in money to support in the business.

Krisana: They'Re not respecting the money is energy, money supports. The company can grow, can invest in talent. If that's not respected, then already the company's geared for failure, because one needs to respect who has invested money, and also needs to use the money wisely in honor of the investment. If you're investing dirty money, dirty money will be lost in your company. So it's really to be aware. But generally in big investments, I don't think that's happening. But you are aware when an investment is dirty and you're allowing that to come into the system, organization system, and then somewhere it will have to be lost. So it's about exchange, and.

Krisana: It'S like.

Krisana: Having energy to move something. It's a big respect. And if you don't respect your investors, or you think you're better than your investors, then there's certain orders that are not in place. That's what I can say.

Mino: And so my thing is, be very intentional about whose money you take. I think, again, there's this operating rhythm or plan like this way that startups operate now, that it's like we all go out, we all get as much money as possible, we fundraise as much as possible, we take, take, and then we go and we complain about the investors, and are upset that the investors want a return on their money, which is why they gave it to you, is because they would like their money to be worth something more in the future. So if you don't want to have those future expectations placed on you, then maybe don't get an investor. Or think about alternative ways. Many companies are starting now, I think, to bootstrap, which means that they're investing their own money into it. But the moment you bring in an investor, you bake in time into your company, because the investor always puts money in with the expectation that in the future they'll take more out. So you've automatically put yourself on a treadmill, that you will have to increase and grow and scale your company and create more wealth for the person that brought money in. So you've increased pressure and time as concepts in your business. When you bootstrap, for instance, that's what we're doing with three p coaching and solutions. We don't have an outside investor, so the only concept of time is how much patience we have for things to go the way we wish them to be. And yes, there are certain, of course, like personal finance issues that can come up, but it's not beholden to someone outside of our company. This is not me saying you should not get an investor, this is me saying do it with intention. Know what you're getting yourself into, because the moment the investor is involved, time is now a factor and a parameter inside of your company. When you don't have an investor, you're timeless. You basically can enjoy as long as you have patience and personal finances to support you, it goes forever. There is no failure. I don't know how else to like, there's no way to fail because you keep going as long as you can go. Only when an investor comes in can you actually fail. Will you have to declare things like bankruptcy or if you take a loan. That's when failure and time start to become constructs and parameters on your business. So just do it wisely and don't go and raise as much money constantly as you can. For instance, when I talk to founders, I've talked to one a couple of weeks ago. They are running a company that is invested from other sources, and they've been able, because of that, to be unprofitable. So they're running an unprofitable business because they have outside money, but because they can't get along with the investor. Now the only thing they can think about is how to get profitable as quickly as possible so they can kick the investor out. So it's all these games, all these dynamics. And my question is, is it really needed? And if it is truly needed, again, amazing. But do it with intention and know what you're getting yourself into. Krisana, I see you had a small reaction. Any thoughts that come up for you?

Krisana: I'm just seeing relationship dynamics. It's very interesting when someone wants money and it's like, daddy, give me money, support me, support me. So it's a bit like a relationship dynamic. Father gives and I can do anything. But this is a constellation in relating with a parent and a child. Parent gives, so the child can receive, but a company should not work on those dynamics. So founders are like, yeah, let's find other investors. Let's get it, let's get it. The. They're honestly running on father issues. Well, look into that. Grow up, earn your money sometimes. So you can look at these dynamics where you can think like, yeah, they're just there. It's there for they give me, and we talk shit about them. But this is disrespectful. This is such a disrespect. So I'm just bringing in some relationship dynamics there.

Mazen: Yeah, don't think everybody. It will trigger people that truth. Knowing that Krisana comes from deep work. Last 25, 30 years in therapy and psychology, even me, I'm like, that's a hard pill. To swallow. But actually there's something if you ever now you're listening and you get triggered, don't take it as a truth, the words, but take what is truth as your reaction and your emotional reaction to it, and try to question your emotional reaction and not what we just said. So it's just been served. And check why you got triggered. And that's really leadership, inner leadership, that's asked from you.

Krisana: And I didn't say it's not bad to receive money from investors. I'm saying if you're receiving from investors, then you're looking for more investors and the company is falling apart. And you're not looking at your actions and you're looking on the outside for someone to give me, because I can't be responsible for my actions and create an outcome. That's what I'm saying. Look at the dynamics you're running on relating dynamics.

Mino: And just to acknowledge, because we use these words like investor, but they own a piece of your company. So you are co owners now. So actually, a weird way we separate them as they're the board and I'm the management team. But when you show up as co owners, you're one team, you're all co owners of this company. So what would it take for the co owners to have the same vision for this company? One person's contribute money and the other person is contributing their talents, their labor, their time. But you're still co owners. And that needs to be acknowledged, that you each brought something to the table, and that you have to work now as a team to get this company somewhere else. Even if that person is just putting money and they're not putting in their time, they're now a co owner that needs to be respected and acknowledged.

Krisana: That very much has to be acknowledged and respected. And for people who have companies, it's really to look at the order and to respect. Give it a place where the money comes from. And it's not just the sheer hard work inside of building the company. Everything has its place.

Mazen: I'm going to give a metaphor or analogy, metaphor or analogy to that of interconnection, interconnectedness and being autonomous, but yes, interdependent. Imagine there is a good athlete. He takes a bow and an arrow. He checks the winds, he checks the factor, like the temperature, sorry, the wind and everything around the weather. And then there is a goal there. There's the target there. You have to summon all the energy and then super focus, using all the elements around them, and then shoot. Okay, so none of this story and one would say, but one moment, the wind is not important, or let the wind do something. Everything was important to shoot. So if we say the investor, but they're not important. With the vision, I'm like, as if the ground is not important for this person to stand on, as if the bow was not important to reach the goal. And they said, but at the end, look, the arrow hit the goal and that's what we celebrate. And I'm like, but yes, the arrow to hit the goal and even the arrow. There's many components of the arrow that makes it be called an arrow, but an arrow like a stick, not any stick is an arrow. So you really have. It's all an orchestra of elements, factors coming together. And on the outside looks. Wow. It's amazing. Look at companies. The amazing brand. Over the last years, 50 years, 100 years, this person did it. I'm like, it's impossible. Everything and everyone did it. How they all focused on the same vision, mission, purpose and goal. Regardless if they were small investors, big investors, a CEO that came and left, an operational guy that came and left, the HR that came and left the HR that stays like everybody make that it reaches the goal. So again, to believe that in separation and through separation, this is all happening, one need to really live in the biggest disillusionment of the mind, because it is impossible.

Mino: And I'll just call it my own word, it's ego, right? So if a founder, again, we're going back to what we just talked about earlier, which is if you identify with the role too much and what you're accomplishing too much, if you're just doing it because you want to get rich quick, there's so much identification and ego that you stop to see that actually, the investor, the employees, the clients, they're all in a relationship with you, they're all in an ecosystem with you. How can you contribute the success of your company if you don't contribute it to your clients? The ones who gave you, you exchanged a service or a product for money, they're as equal for your success than you are. You didn't build the company, you almost built it together. You and your clients together, you and your employees, they did the work. You and your investors, they put the money in. So it's an interesting dynamic that founders who I think can maybe say, I'm in the power. It's me. I did it. I did it alone. And ignore all the other contributions from everyone else around that did it together.

Mazen: Yeah. I will use your words in a very simple form based on another image. There's only one sentence. When we succeed in reaching goal, we did it. And then there's one word that someone, a founder or someone say, I did it by. I was perfect doing my role. Yes, I was perfect doing my role. Hence we did it. But no one can say I did it all. I'm like, it is impossible. So when everyone. When I say yes, we can give lots of pride, ego is also healthy, we can give ourselves lots of compliments, validation. It's amazing. So I would say I did my role, my function perfectly. And probably I was the best for that team in my function. And yes, celebrate, be happy. It was me in that function. But I didn't do it. We did it. I played my role perfectly. And then imagine how much it's helpful to move on and create other companies when one understand it's the role that it's played perfectly and not the personality that playing God.

Mino: And with that, we're going to bring this episode to an end. So thank you so much for listening and we hope to see you soon.

Mazen: Thank you.

Krisana: Thank you. Bye.